obelixtim 150 #1 June 10, 2004 I already said in a previous post that it is not a time for anger and bitterness. I am not angry at all....its a very sad situation for everyone involved......but from the posts I've read, its upset a lot of people, understandably.......and thats OK...... What happened is a betrayal of every skydiving instinct. I think its healthy to talk about events like this......jumpers will do that.....through the whole spectrum of emotions... This individual bought into the discussion right from the start......by doing what he did........I'm sure he knew clearly that his actions would provoke a lot of theorising about his rationale......... because what he did was most unkind to his family and friends.... So in fact it does have something to do with me, even though I didn't know him, because I care about both people and skydiving....and its been part of most of my life.......I'd like to better understand his thought processes...like everyone else here... I can well understand that the behaviour was irrational......I'm sure it wasn't something he would have done if he was thinking straight...... The point is, he displayed complex thinking skills, in planning what is a quite deliberate series of steps, over a period of time, and then carried it through in a cold blooded way...... I guess it shows clearly that this illness doesn't manifest itself in an obvious way to other people.....so its not easy to recognise........... I would hope that people give it some serious thought. Which is happening here.....there have been some great posts......and some not so great.......but as I said......he bought into the discussion, good and bad, right from the start....... All views are valid.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #2 June 11, 2004 Quote What happened is a betrayal of every skydiving instinct No. It's not. Skydiving is not anything that is common to all. It is unique for each individual. Human. Not sport. I'll agree with you that discussion on this subject will happen due to the fact that 'skydiving' is the thing we have in common on this board. But, in choosing a skydive as his final exit from the world - you can't be sure he was saying anything at all. The only thing you can be sure of is that he saw no other way out of what ever it was that he was feeling. If you or I had any idea of what was he was really thinking or feeling, I suspect we wouldn't be here to 'discuss' the plight. I don't mean to be harsh - and certainly don't mean to single anyone out. But to profess we 'know' when we really don't, is such a common, and perhaps, human thing to do. Without making any judgement on whether or not this is a skydiving incident, this is much more to do with a human condition than it is to do with a skydiving 'malfunction'. To make it about the sport , to me, is to devalue the life that was intentionally taken. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #3 June 11, 2004 By "skydiving instinct", I mean the strong survival instinct that is common to every skydiver.......thats got nothing to do with sport..... Its about living.....and treating your friends with respect....whatever this guys motivation, basically he trampled on his friends and family.....and for that he doesn't deserve to be treated like some sort of wounded hero...... And I'm sure that every skydiver will agree that nothing makes you feel more "alive" than a skydive.....Thats a big reason why we do it again and again.... He deliberatly, and with some cold calculation chose this way out, because there were other, "easier" alternatives available for him. He planned and carried out a rather complex set of actions.....and to me this shows that he knew full well the furore that it would cause.....going out in a blaze of "glory" if you like.... I feel sorry for the guy, but he's not the first or last person to make a bit of a mess of things.....most don't plan or carry out such an elaborate method of exit...... And it seems here everyone is assuming he suffered from clinical depression.....I'm sure he was sad, but did he display any of the classic symtoms of clinical depression previously?.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #4 June 11, 2004 QuoteNo. It's not. I have to agree. If someone choices to 'exit' in a sports car, that doesn't devalue motor racing, drowning doesn't embarace all swimmers etc... etc.. This genteleman (it seems to me) selected a method that he knew would work 100% and that's all there is to it. The only good, common theme in all of these posts, is that our thoughts are with the family and freinds .... and THAT is as it should be. Any other discussion at the end of the day is simply BS - we dont now and never will, know what he was thinking. Let him Rest in Peace. Blue Skies to all. - Have a Great Weekend. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #5 June 11, 2004 Swimming and motor racing, to quote two activities, are regarded by the public at large as normal things to do...skydiving has had to battle long and hard to win public acceptance, and it is still regarded by many as an activity for the "lunatic" fringe.... This has many implications for the existance of skydiving, whether its access to aircraft, airspace, airfields, funding, employment or a whole host of other things....I've spent many years fighting this "acceptance" battle, against some sometimes strong prejudice, antagonism even..... it was NEVER easy..... Having said that, I don't think the public at large would see this event as anything other than an aberration, and I certainly wouldn't expect the "sport" to suffer because of it.....its only the tabloid gutter press who make a meal of this kind of thing.....and their opinion isn't worth jack shit....skydiving is strong enough to survive this easily..... But I feel for the people left behind, especially the ones he dragged into his scheme unwittingly...like the cameraman for instance.... What a horrible thing to do to your friends..... Maybe he selected a method that he knew would work 100%......but what is for sure is that there was a 100% certainty it would damage as many people as possible. If he was that determined to take himself out there are a lot of other ways that are 100% certain as well, and certainly a lot less complicated than this way.....you can't tell me he wasn't aware of that.....why else would he allow it to be captured on video....He clearly thought about all this..... If this discussion makes one other individual in the world who is contemplating a similar action think about it again, then its worth it...... Don't flick a discussion about it off as simple "BS"....whatever he was thinking is now irrelevant at this point in time....but I think it is a valuable exercise to consider and contemplate the possibilties.....this kind of awareness could prevent it happening again in the future..... We can't hurt this guy any more......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #6 June 11, 2004 I see your point(s). my BS point was not aimed at the discussion per se...(which is obviously valid) but at the subject of reading the mans mind - which is clearly an academinc one, as we can never know the thought process. QuoteWe can't hurt this guy any more..... - No but we can hurt his Friends and Family and that would be a shame. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbage 0 #7 June 11, 2004 obelixtim, If you really feel for the people left behind as you state. Why can't you keep your judgmental shite off of this forum. Your comments contribute nothing of value to the incidents forum. You didn't know Alastair, you know nothing of him other than what you've heard from unreliable sources. Alastair was one of the good guys! He'll be missed. He was always there to help anyone. He chose his way to go when he felt ready. Let him rest now.------------------------------------------------ We're a' just machines for makin' shite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #8 June 11, 2004 No we can't read his mind.....but his actions do in fact tell us a lot about his thought processes......as well as what he DIDN'T consider.... I don't think we can hurt his family and friends any more than he has already done, but we can maybe take away from them any sense of "blame" or guilt they may be feeling......and put things into a more logical perspective...perhaps.... Because feeling guilt is another very human response.....who knows what his friends and family are going thru..... I am sure there are a few asking themselves what they could have done to prevent this......and unfortunatly the answer is probably......nothing...... It probably won't make them feel any better about it though..... Talking helps understanding, and if it can help people rationalise this event, then I think it is OK to do so.....not least for the sake of his family and friends.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #9 June 11, 2004 Cabbage......as I can't PM you, I can't tell you what to do.....but it ain't good..... You arn't the only one who has dealt with death on a DZ, OR a suicide by someone close....because you arn't. So get off my back....I'm part of a reasoned discussion here....and we are entitled to discuss this...whether you agree or not.... Why don't you give us your perspective....instead of slagging me off.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbage 0 #10 June 11, 2004 My perspective is that as someone who knew Alastair well, I'm pissed off with the media and people like you presuming to know what he was like, what his motives were and what his friends and family are thinking. Like it or not your comments are just the type of thing the media may take more than a passing interest in. As I said - Let him rest.------------------------------------------------ We're a' just machines for makin' shite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #11 June 11, 2004 Not presuming anything....just reacting to something that has generated a lot of comment.....the media are always going to get stuck into it......it comes with the territory...... You being pissed off isn't going to change that......or the fact that his actions ARE going to elicit comment from a lot of people who know nothing about skydiving.....and skydivers are the ones they look to for answers....inadequate as they may be..... You can attack the hell out of me all you like...but that ain't gonna stop people talking about it.....its just a case of trying to make sense out of what happened here......what you are seeing is an after effect of the event....... It doesn't just affect you......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeehaa 0 #12 June 11, 2004 I have seen several people mention that this man planned and caried it out in a deliberate "cold blooded way". Does this mean that suicide is a "hot blooded" thing that happens on the spur of the moment? No, this is rarely the case. As many of us know severe depression is related to chemical imbalances in the brain (this is why it can be treated with medication and sometimes therapy is not effective). Why choose skydiving and "tarnish" our sport? Maybe it was the only way he could feel comfortable. Some people feel comfortable with sleeping pills, others with firearms. Seems natural (as natural as this can get) to me that a skydiver would want to go out this way. This mans reality was severely warped during the days/weeks/whatever that he made this decision. Can any of us really imagine feeling sad/unhappy/unloved/useless/hated/etc all the time?? No wonder then that we are having so much trouble understanding why he did it. I don't think we should try to understand because every suicide is a tragedy, however it is commited. I am not condoning or condemning this man's actions just adding my view in the hope that someone will find it helpfull.Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. George Bernard Shaw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petetheladd 0 #13 June 11, 2004 I will take a blizzard of backwash for this but here it goes. In this day and age it seems, expressing an opinion with any judgement attached to it is seen as inherently wrong. Phrases like "you cant judge .X.. because you cant know ..Y. " I did not know this man or his circumstance but i do know what he did. Fact : It did no favours for either his friends/family or skydiving. We dont need it in our sport and trying to cast any good kind of light on the actions he took is absurd. Not that its worth spit, but from my selfish skydiving perspective, I would have preferred he found another way out than tarnish our sport. I only hope Joe public sloughs it off as a suicide and not as skydiving behaviour. My Condolences to those he left behind No, Not without incident Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #14 June 11, 2004 QuoteWhy can't you keep your judgmental shite off of this forum. It's not one mans personal oppinion that suicide is a selfish act. It's fact. I didn't know the man, and I won't lose sleep over the matter... but I'm not even 'passing jugment' in saying what he did was selfish. Trying to pretend like it wasn't an ass-hat move is not protecting his family and loved ones in the slightest. Let's try then to 'protect' them from any possible guilt they may be feeling today and call a spade a spade. Suicide, nomatter the motivation, is the SINGLE most selfish thing a person can do... and it's a good thing it can only be done once. Tarnish the sport? I don't think even the dumbest of wuffos would chalk this up to 'normal skydiver behaviour'... on the other hand, how many of you have ever been asked: "What, you got some sort of death wish?"... whatever, I DO wish he had chosen some other way to go... Outside the "playground"... I wish even more however, that he had not been so selfish in the first place. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpreil 2 #15 June 11, 2004 I beg to differ. In the general public's mind, these incidents "prove" that all skydivers are basically suicidal. We all have a "death wish", and it doesn't take much to make us act on it. That's what the world sees - and this hurts us. It causes problems when you apply for a job, it causes problems with insurance, it causes problems with families. How much do you want to bet that some insurance company in the world today is about to add a clause excluding skydiving related deaths because it's too easy to kill yourself and have your family collect because it looks like an accident? Look at the number of incidents in the fatalities database that are listed as confirmed or possible suicides and tell me this isn't going to make it harder to get insurance for skydivers. For those who say this discussion is pointless and hurts the family and friends of the deceased, all I can say is I'm sorrry for your loss, but this forum isn't for condolences and hugs- it's for open discussion. The rules are clearly posted. And we do need to discuss this and remind everyone to keep an eye out for this behavior. This is not a one of a kind event; it happens at least once or twice a year and- here's the key issue - there is a clear copy cat effect. Note how close these 2 incidents in the UK are to the announcement that last year's fatality waas also a suicide. Irrational behavior generates imitation. Since we can't keep people from hearing the news, our best defense of to make sure we are informed. Keep an eye out for borderline behavior to protect yourself, your friends, and your sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #16 June 11, 2004 Quotewe do need to discuss this and remind everyone to keep an eye out for this behavior. So where is the discussion about his behaviour before the jump? Just like hugs and condolences should be kept out of this forum, shouldn't speculation as to the deceased's thought processes and intentions (other than the obvious)? Additionally, what malfunction or mistake occurred to discuss in skydiving 'incidents'? In my opinion, no skydiving incident occurred. Everything happened as planned on that jump. I agree totally about one thing - let's take good care of our friends. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #17 June 11, 2004 I don't think you get the point......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpreil 2 #18 June 11, 2004 "Everything happened as planned on that jump" As planned by who? I'm sure the DZO didn't plan it that way. I'm sure manifest didn't plan the jump that way. I'm sure the people he jumped with didn't dirt dive that. I'm sure the pilot, the other jumpers and everyone on the DZ didn't plan to spend the day like that. This forum is about our collective experience in the sport. It is appropriate to discuss what we can collectively observe and do for the greater good of the community. As far as I can see, no one is "speculating". I haven't seen anyone say there was any specific clue they should have observed. The comments have all been general; we need to exercise some collective awareness that this possibility does exist, and it will hurt us if we don't at least try to prevent it. I am saying specifically that acts like this have an unfortunate tendency to spawn imitators, and that all of us should be increasingly aware of the risk that such a potential imitator might be sitting next to us on the plane. So do all of us a favor: At some point this weekend, ask one person "How are you doing?" as if you really mean it. If that's not an appropriate use of this forum, I give up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #19 June 12, 2004 Quote...It is appropriate to discuss what we can collectively observe and do for the greater good of the community.... ...we need to exercise some collective awareness that this possibility does exist, and it will hurt us if we don't at least try to prevent it... Is this the point? Then I get it. QuoteAnd depressed or not, you can't tell me that he would not have been intelligent enough to know that there are agencies to provide help for people with problems..... His desire to go out in this way seems to me to be a definite case of wanting to put on a big show.....whether to give everyone a big guilt trip, or a desire to "pay them all back"..... Is this the point? You're right. I don't. I'll stand down. I know no one here (obelixtim) means harm to another. Discussion and awareness are important. Suicide has hit home recently and I guess I'm feeling sensitive. It's just so sorrowful. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #20 June 12, 2004 Quote This is not a one of a kind event; it happens at least once or twice a year and- here's the key issue - there is a clear copy cat effect. Note how close these 2 incidents in the UK are to the announcement that last year's fatality waas also a suicide. Absolutely right. And that fact only further emphasizes how irresponsible the police were in the original incident by declaring it a suicide. It's bad enough to worry about actual suicides. We don't need manufactured ones. Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #21 June 14, 2004 Careful what we POST. Looks like the anger runs deep with his friends at the DZ anyway, though. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #22 June 14, 2004 QuoteLooks like the anger runs deep with his friends at the DZ anyway, though. That was last Sunday's news...and I've heard since then from several people that the funeral was well attended by the skydiving community. Kudos to those who were able to look past their own personal opinions, and reached out to those who desperately needed love and support. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #23 June 14, 2004 Sorry, didn't look at the date. Yes, it is true that alot of friends from his home club in St Andrews attended the service. However, the skydivers at the DZ where he performed his last jump, Skydive Strathallan, were very few. Report: Here ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #24 June 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteLooks like the anger runs deep with his friends at the DZ anyway, though. That was last Sunday's news...and I've heard since then from several people that the funeral was well attended by the skydiving community. Kudos to those who were able to look past their own personal opinions, and reached out to those who desperately needed love and support. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Ciels- Michele I agree, Michele. I didn't know Alister. I don't know what his thoughts were prior to taking his own life. I do know he was part of my family and he was obviously hurting. I'm glad to hear that members of his skydiving family chose to not turn their backs on him. Regardless of what happened, he was our brother. Good bye brother. Blue Skies, Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #25 June 14, 2004 QuoteI beg to differ. In the general public's mind.... We all have a "death wish" This is, in my opinion, a fallacy perpetuated only by skydivers. Just look at the hype in 'whuffo world' regarding former Pres Bush's & Chuck Norris' jumps this past weekend. From what I have seen, the general public were impressed and applauded. Even here in South Africa folk are talking about it, and in a positive way. This particular incident got some press coverage over here and not one single person that spoke to me about it had anything to say about death wishes. The common theme was "What drives one to commit suicide?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites