WrongWay 0 #1 June 4, 2004 Let's say you have a friend in the sport who is doing something ridiculously stupid and dangerous. It could be anything, downsizing to a tiny hp canopy way too soon, going head down and tracking at people at very few jumps, jumping in 40 mph winds, whatever. Would you approach this friend? If so, how would you? Would you have an instructor or S&TA approach him/her? Is it even your responsibility? Would you just let it go and hope they don't die? What would you do? Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 June 4, 2004 If it was my friend . . . I'd talk to him.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #3 June 4, 2004 Friends take care of each other. Always. Even if it steps on egos. Even if it might be entertaining to watch them f-up. Even if you know they might get mad. Even if it means you don't get laid. Even if it means you are put out a few bucks. I can only hope this is a troll and you are not seriously unsure of what to do. - Cajones The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougiefresh 0 #4 June 4, 2004 Grab him by the collar, sit his ass down, buy him a beer, and explain to him EXACTLY why what he's doing is dangerous, not only to himself but to everyone around him. And hope he listens. If that doesn't work, have the S+TA / instructor/ dzo talk to him. If that doesn't work, tell everyone you see what he's doing, and avoid him like the plague whenever he straps on his gear. Cuz someone's gonna get hurt, and no one wants that.Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #5 June 4, 2004 are they open to being spoken too? most people that do "stupid shit" aint normally gonna take on board what people / their friends say to them....................... the only thing is to get someone they look up to, to walk over to speak to them.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian425 0 #6 June 4, 2004 You always stand by your friends. Tell them in no uncertain terms why you think what he is doing is dangerous or wrong. If you are his friend, you will do everything you can to help keep him safe. If not, just be there to help pick up his broken body. He's still your friend. Even if he's wrong, don't leave him alone. B The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #7 June 4, 2004 QuoteI can only hope this is a troll and you are not seriously unsure of what to do. i can assure you wrongway is not a troll. i know the situation he is speaking of. if i'm correct, they have been approached and do not want to listen. i have personally approached one of them and tried to nicely explain to them that they are using bad judgement. it went nowhere. it is a tough situation. at least he cares enough to try to do something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #8 June 4, 2004 Sometimes when you're doing something stupid it doesn't quite register that you're doing something stupid and you need a friend or someone you respect to put you in your place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #9 June 4, 2004 I have told people I think they're making a stupid choice. If I don't think they'll listen to me, I mention that person to someone who they will listen to, and let them have a chat togeather. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #10 June 4, 2004 TALK TO HIM. Don't spend the rest of your life wondering why you didn't stop the cylce before it ended badly. If he/she doesn't listen, THEN send somebody with more clout like an S&TA or DZO. Elvisio "get by with a little help from my friends" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #11 June 4, 2004 Good on both of you. Keep telling them. Maybe if they hear it enough times, they will stop and think. Friends don't give up on friends. - Cajones The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #12 June 4, 2004 QuoteMaybe if they hear it enough times, they will stop and think unless they are trying to make a point about something they dont want to discuss....................... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #13 June 4, 2004 Quote If that doesn't work, have the S+TA / instructor/ dzo talk to him. Someone in two of these positions said to me "If they want to kill themselves, that's their problem. I won't step in until someone else is endangered, and even then I'll need video to prove it." I understand the position about the video, but I don't think it's okay for anyone to get hurt or killed for any reason. The parties involved are wonderful people and good friends. I have yet to see any of my friends die in the sport. I don't want to start now. Quote If that doesn't work, tell everyone you see what he's doing, and avoid him like the plague whenever he straps on his gear. Cuz someone's gonna get hurt, and no one wants that. Already done, and everybody knows. It's just that nothing is being said/done, and I don't want to seem like a skygod by telling someone what's right or wrong. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #14 June 4, 2004 You can only do so much for someone. You did the right thing, he hasnt (maybe he will at one point down the line). This is a very personal sport, and in the end, its his lif to screw with. Obviously, you value his friendship enough to want to help him, but looks like he doenst value you input that much. If he's a close friend, stick by him and his decisions, if he's not, well, cuting away means more then one thing. If he does things that endanger others, I cant see what would make me stick around.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougiefresh 0 #15 June 4, 2004 QuoteI don't want to seem like a skygod by telling someone what's right or wrong. So find a skygod and have them do it. Besides, it's not about you, it's about this selfish person doing whatever they want without thinking. Can you give specifics about what your friend is doing?Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #16 June 4, 2004 Quote Can you give specifics about what your friend is doing? Well, it's not one specific thing, a lot of craziness like headflying (tracking) into other airspace, cameras right off of student status, team swoops, stuff like that, but the last straw was downsizing from a Sabre2 170 to a Stiletto 135 at 150 jumps and weighing roughly 185-190 without gear. Edited to add: BTW, it's not just one jumper. It's a "team" thing. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #17 June 4, 2004 QuoteQuote If that doesn't work, have the S+TA / instructor/ dzo talk to him. Someone in two of these positions said to me "If they want to kill themselves, that's their problem. I won't step in until someone else is endangered, and even then I'll need video to prove it." This is like a S&TA/DZO saying they won't intervene if the jumper has low pulls. When it comes to safety, a DZO can do whatever they want. Nobody has the "right" to jump at any DZ. Any DZ can ground anybody for being unsafe in the air whether its to themselves or others. It seems to me the S&TA or the DZO should take this jumper aside and tell them that they're hearing about some unsafe habits that need to be stopped or your friend will be grounded. Nothing will stop him from hurting himself if he tries hard enough, but the DZ can certainly step in to try and keep him alive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 June 4, 2004 Since I know the situation too... Here is an example that 2 of our friends are doing: Friend one is jumping from a 170 at 1.25 to a 135 at 1.6 at about 150-175 jumps. I would'nt bitch about this but honestly this friend's canopy skills need some work. Accuracy is barely acceptible, but the pattern flown and approaches need work. The entire attitude about the HP approach is scary in not waiting to dial in a 45 or 90 and jumping right to 180's and now 270's. Same person also had a camera on his head before he had his A licence Friend two wants to go from his 170 @ ~1.3 to a crossbrace 120 at probally ~1.8 at a bit over 120 jumps over 2-3 years. This friend constantly is having to land crosswind since they can't make it through the pattern because they turn so low. Accuracy is non existant since they can't even fly the pattern and end up flying crosswind infront of everyone following the pattern. Anyone that was at SGC last week got to see a big splash from this person when they hit the water Someone approached me last year with similar concerns and I'm happy to say that I went and organized for Scott Miller's crew to come to the DZ next weekend to help improve my skills (and others) so people don't have to worry about me anymore. Luckly the one person that said something to me is one of my best friends at the DZ now.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #19 June 4, 2004 QuoteIt seems to me the S&TA or the DZO should take this jumper aside and tell them that they're hearing about some unsafe habits that need to be stopped or your friend will be grounded. Nothing will stop him from hurting himself if he tries hard enough, but the DZ can certainly step in to try and keep him alive. YES! They should. And I know one of the jumpers in question frequents this forum. If they happen to read this, please know that the concern you are seeing is really because we care about you. You are a friend to many, and we are just trying to help keep things safe for you guys and for us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #20 June 4, 2004 Bro say something. At least if god forbid something happens you know you tried.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 June 4, 2004 Quotei can assure you wrongway is not a troll. i know the situation he is speaking of. if i'm correct, they have been approached and do not want to listen. Then they might not be as much of a "friend" as though. In addition to listening to a warning a "friend" would realize they are causing those that care about them to worry.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #22 June 4, 2004 QuoteLet's say you have a friend in the sport who is doing something ridiculously stupid and dangerous. It could be anything, downsizing to a tiny hp canopy way too soon, going head down and tracking at people at very few jumps, jumping in 40 mph winds, whatever. Would you approach this friend? If so, how would you? Would you have an instructor or S&TA approach him/her? Is it even your responsibility? Would you just let it go and hope they don't die? What would you do? You need to ask them questions. Lots of them and at times - in rapid fire progression. It's the Socratic way of teaching. You guide and steer people to think and judge things for themselves. That is when the knowledge and information become part of the person. For instance: You: What type of landing are you doing on this jump? Other Jumper: I'll be doing a 270 approach on my new canopy. Y: What altitude will you start your approach? O: I dunno - about abc ft. That's what worked before on my other canopy. Y: Are the WLs the same for your two canopies? O: No. This new one is loaded at 1.x. The other one was loaded at 1.y. Y: Wow - That's quite a difference. That's about a z% increase in airspeed. Does that mean that your control inputs have to be z% faster? Are you doing riser turns or toggle turns? How much heavier are the front risers on your new canopy compared to the old one? Didn't you last jump your old canopy when it was 60F here. Now, it's +100F - I think the density altitude is up to 4K. That adds another 6% of increase in airspeed. Wouldn't that make the rate of control inputs that much faster too? Aren't control inputs more sensitive at higher WLs? I mean 3 inches of riser pull means a sharper turn on a higher WL canopy than a low WL - right? If everything is happening so much faster - how and when do you look for traffic? Once you start your turn - do you look for traffic? If you start your turn above xyz landmark, where will you land? I'm just asking so that I can avoid these airspaces. I don't want to get in your way. I want to land safely. Seems to me that everything for you is happening much faster than you are used to. O: ???? The idea is to get the jumper to think about what he's doing and all of the variables. Since he probably won't have answers to everything, he may back off in his aggressiveness. As to what to use for z% increase - you can rephrase as a question. eg 'What's that - about a 10% increase in airspeed?' eg 'What's that - about a 20% increase in airspeed?' eg 'What's that - about a 50% increase in airspeed?' Whatever number you suggest (unless you actually calculate it) won't be exactly right. The other jumper will then have to estimate or at least think about how much faster he goes under the higher WL and how much faster and sensitive control inputs will be. Something he may not have thought about before. Keep in mind that all the jumpers that have landed in turns already know 'land with wings level', 'do not land in a turn' etc - yet they have done it. What they do not always know is that the altitude picture and the rate of change of the altitude picture change dramatically with changes of several variables. If you can get people to see these changes, then you are more likely to get them to approach changing the variables in a more conservative way. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #23 June 4, 2004 Pull his reserve handle. Get your rigger to hold off repacking for a few weeks (an informal grounding). I've seen it done before in response to a weak S&TA. Didn't work, but best of luck anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #24 June 4, 2004 Hey man, i read through this and i can say one thing; I made a major jump (down) in canopy sizes at around a 120 jumps. I went from a Sabre 170 to a cobalt 135. (phree witnessed some of those jumps) Some people at the dz said, "you are going to kill yourself" Others said, "lets pull high and see what this thing will do." The later are still my friends. Sometimes the way you say things makes all the difference in the world. Teachers sometimes vary their methods to make sure they are reaching all the students in the class. I just recently made a very similar downsize again. Those same people who said the first time are still saying that i am going to kill myself, my friends are helping me LEARN. Maybe not the same thing, maybe it is. Try another approach and see what happens. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #25 June 4, 2004 >Try another approach and see what happens. Offers of assistance and coaching have been turned down by at least one of the friendsYesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
