Bigger canopy is safer?

[pds 0]

hey... you like to argue. nothing wrong with that.

but you shouldnt be suprised that all the noise gets in the way of what could otherwise still be a productive thread.

i might be the only one that thinks argue, argue, argue, non contributing rebuttal, new thread misquote really does condition to expect that this is a troll post. oh well, never let being the only one stop me before, why start now.

not a troll? ok. never mind. carry on.

namaste, motherfucker.

[Ron 10]

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Trying to 'show you up"? By asking questions??

See...to me, that would mean that I was listening to what you're saying and thinking about it and wanting to delve deeper into something that was said.

never occured to me that you could think that a newbie would be trying to show you up. *shrug*

Oh, I don't think you are trying to show me up...And frankly I would not care anyway. I don't need to prove myself to anyone, anymore, anyway.

But, I am telling you WHY folks are calling you a troll....Again I don't care.

I do think you are argumentative...And it seems I'm the only one stupid enough to continue to argue some of the stupid points.

But the PERCEPTION is that you are after me....I don't think so, but others do....Something to think about. You are starting to be seen as someone that likes to argue...I have that same moniker...But the difference is people think you will not listen when you are given answers...So they wonder why do you keep asking if you don't listen?

The only answer is to troll.

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Inaccurate.
I said mucho-experienced jumperS..plural. You're right in that I refuse to listen to you...or any one source for anything. I shop around...not for an answer that i'm hoping to hear, but to get many sources through which to educate myself before making a decision/opinion.

In other threads others said the same thing and you still refused to listen....So the question remains...Why ask if you are not going to listen?

For what its worth I don't think you are after me...Since you do stick to your guns against everyone that does not think your way....

But I do wonder why ask if you are not going to listen?

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I take what you say as important, Ron...but you're not God. If I didn't take what you say seriously, I never would have questioned you. If you were a newbie with little experience, I wouldn't have had my interest peaked and wouldn't have addressed this issue in here....

And I never thought I was a God.

But you don't seem to listen to others at all, anyway...which is why folks think you are trolling. You get info and then you start another thread that it seems purpose is to try and prove someone wrong....It just so happens that person is me.....

But we have already decided that you seem to be after me since I am one of the few that will not just give up and stop paying atention to your questions since you don't listen and seem to like to just argue.

Again I don't think you are after me...I just think Im to stupid to just give up and let you think what you want.

But others seem to think you are after me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,446]

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Yet I was just recently told differently in a class...which is why I wanted to see if it was conventional wisdom or if it was a controversial idea, who believed which side, and what each side had to say about it...

If you do everything right, you can have a better landing on a canopy that's a little smaller, because speed can be your friend in getting a good flare.

However, you have far fewer opportunities to screw up. Flare late, flare early, not get into the wind, not finish your flare -- all those mistakes hurt more on a smaller canopy.

If you can PLF, you can land backwards safely under most circumstances. People have been doing it for years. So with good judgement about winds, that's not as big a problem.

So I'll vote with the "bigger is better" with the understanding that's under most circumstances. Something to remember about landing is that it's a very real-time skill -- you have to decide and execute all at once, taking in a huge number of variables (traffic, winds, spot, depth perception, speed -- lots). Then you have to eliminate the ones that are consistent with your past experience, and land the canopy right for that jump.

Again -- a bigger canopy will let you misjudge a couple of those and still walk away, particularly if you PLF.

One of my canopies is loaded at a little above 1.0, the other at about .7. I have several hundred jumps at less than 1.0, simply because the canopies that were available that I could afford were all big. I believe I survived all of them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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actually...the question I posed had absolutely ZILCH to do with any previous discussion Ron and I had ever had or not had. (and I'm not sure why you'd think that one disucssion would have anything to do with another?)

From the ‘other’ thread about canopy sizing;

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(I'm going to be making a post following this one over in safety and training...)

I thinks that is why they think this thread is associated with the ‘other’ thread.

Derek

[skyyhi 0]

Peek, thank you for your response. . .

Hopefully soon the arguing will stop and some useful information regarding the differences between larger and smaller canopies will actually be discussed. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Reading on here often enough,... you will, without even opening this thread, know that it will be unproductive and become a flamefest.

I'm not going to bother reading it right now,... maybe when i'm bored, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Later.
Angela.

[D22369 0]

In some situations a larger canopy can be the more dangerous......

an example from Richland WA. in 1991:

15 jumpers from two planes.

on jump run the ground winds came up to 25 sustained, with gusts reaching 40mph
spot was waaaay bad (note to self....dont let Price spot)

I was jumping a 135 stiletto loaded at 1.4 to one, and was going no-where under canopy, my wingloading allowed me to fight the wind, but to make no progress against it.... but it was relatively easy to pick a safe landing area in a schoolyard.

several of us landed in the school yard together. Once we got a ride (locals are awsome) and got back to the dz, we found out that two of the jumpers got injured, one hit a power line, (luckily he suffered only scrapes and bruses and a trashed canopy)----> wingloading approximatly .80 it was a large f-111 canopy.
2nd injury, triathlon 190 with approximatly 1-1 wingloading, lacerated throat, cut into the trachea....*note to self, dont hit dog kennels....

With their (relatively) light wingloadings, they were blown backwards and waited waaaaay too long to pick thier landing areas.

one of the jumpers on the 2nd plane is a proponent of larger canopys..... and was quite vocal of his opinion of us younger guys jumping the small canopies........ at least till this incident.

But if wind is not an issue then I would have to vote that larger canopys would be the safer choice. They allow a larger margin for error.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[DancingFlame 0]

All manufacturers claim minimum and maximum recommended wing load. I think, if your wing load on a bigger canopy is below recommended minimum, it will be unsafe to jump on it (for some reason, weather, wind gusts etc). So, bigger is not always safer!

[Ron 10]

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All manufacturers claim minimum and maximum recommended wing load

False. Not all claim a minimum wingload.

And I have seen folks under 300+ sized canopies..and they did fine.

The only issue that bigger canopies have is high winds.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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In some situations a larger canopy can be the more dangerous......

Are you suggesting that the jumpers that were backing up under larger canopies would have been safer had they been jumping smaller canopies for that jump?

Derek

[skyyhi 0]

Derek, I am with you on this one. . .I believe the wind played a HUGE issue in this and that no one was really safe in those conditions and only experienced canopy pilots could have the knowledge necessary to land in those wind conditions. . .

I am a student and get nervous when the windsock reaches a 45 degree angle (between 7 and 10 mph winds). I will watch other students under canopy before going up myself - mainly because of the light wing loading. . .even though we have a HUGE landing area and lots of outs. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[phoenixlpr 0]

Its a kindda fun to jump in Finland :). We have some spare landing area, but the main area/airfield is that has been chopped out from the forest. You may find other words for landing out here :).

[skyyhi 0]

Trees? At this point trees make me nervous (gotta work on accuracy. . .hmm). . .what is the weather like in Finland this time of year. . .are you grounded for winter?

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[phoenixlpr 0]

Sweet winter: snow of 30-40cms, -6C -16C on ground.

Grounded? It depends on your and your friends preference. It can be blue sky and slite wind, if you are willing to jump in cold :). I was told that some maiacs are visiting spanish DZs this time of year.

[skyyhi 0]

Well, not bad actually. . .cold, yes. . .but not bad. Someday I will get a chance to visit other countries. . .lol!

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[caress 0]

Wow, that is an eye opener! My belief after reading through all of this is that bigger canopy is more forgiving(not safer) as long as a big wind doesn't come up after you have jumped out of the plane.
Does the ratio decide how it is going to open with you- I'm sorry I'm ignorant- and the size of the canopy decides how the canopy is going to fly with you? Does how much you weigh and how much strength you have decide your canopy size?-Caress

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[Ron 10]

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My belief after reading through all of this is that bigger canopy is more forgiving(not safer) as long as a big wind doesn't come up after you have jumped out of the plane.

bingo.

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Does the ratio decide how it is going to open with you

This is s design question...Not something I know tons about....However yes a bigger canopy CAN open harder. There is a reason that a Velocity does not come in 135+...Yes packing volume is one of the reasons...But Canopies don't scale. So if you take a canopy and make it all around 10% bigger...It WILL NOT open and fly the same...The reason is the air it travels through will not scale.

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and the size of the canopy decides how the canopy is going to fly with you? Does how much you weigh and how much strength you have decide your canopy size?-Caress

Wingload and TYPE of canopy is more important that just size.

There is no "correct" canopy size. It is dependant on the planeform (Type), Material (ZP vs F-111), density altitiude of the DZ...(A 120 flies much faster in Denver than in Tampa, FL.) Winds...And skills of the pilot. There are folks I would not EVER put on a small elliptical. And others I could see on a larger one at 150ish jumps.

Listen to your instructors (not the ones that are trying to sell you their old gear) and when in doubt remember that being broken sucks, and error on the side of saftey.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[caress 0]

How hard is a hard opening? Do you mean that a big canopy can bruise the heck out of your back and shoulders, and maybe even cut your chin with your frap hat, or do you mean it can literally rip right off of you?
Also Humidity, and ft above sea level decides how your chute should be packed, but also what your exit weight is?( which is how much you weigh with all your gear on?) and these things should also decide what size canopy you are jumping with? Can you explain how that all works, or tell me a place where I can read about it so I can stop taking up your precious time? You are spoiling me-Caress

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[wmw999 2,446]

I've got several hundred jumps at .9 to 1 or less. I fold my nose twice and don't really have a problem other than that. Once when I didn't fold the nose, I had a slammer, but no damage to anything on the rig or canopy (strained my neck a little, but I wasn't expecting a hard opening, either).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[caress 0]

Trying to understand what .9 to 1 is? does that mean 9/10ths to one(one being yourself?) so like a tandum would be .9 to 2? Explain? I'm feel so ignorant.Caress

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[Ron 10]

1 to 1....The first number is the weight of the person and gear to include the main divided by the square footage of the canopy.

I weigh 150 pounds and I have a rig that weighs 15 pounds. When I get on a scale right before I get on a plane I weigh 165 pounds.

If I am jumping a 170, I am at 165/170 or a wingload of .97...Also written as .97 to 1. If I am on a 107 I am 165/107=1.54...I am at a 1.54 to 1 wingload.

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How hard is a hard opening? Do you mean that a big canopy can bruise the heck out of your back and shoulders, and maybe even cut your chin with your frap hat, or do you mean it can literally rip right off of you?

Hard can be from it opening so that it is uncomfertable....To killing you or destroying the gear. Deaths are rare, but have happened. Usually it is due to a medical issue, but I can think of one where a FF guy had a reserve open while head down and it killed him.

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Also Humidity, and ft above sea level decides how your chute should be packed

Maybe, but more likley just how it should be flown.

An aircraft needs more runway when it is Hot, and at a high altitude. It needs less when it is at sea level and it is cold.

A canopy is a glider and the same rules of physics apply.

While I am fine jumping an 88 in Zhills on a cold day, that same canopy in Denver when it is hot might be to high of a wingload to land.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[caress 0]

Thank you Ron, you are both a gentleman and a scholar!

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

[benny 0]

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1 to 1....The first number is the size of the canopy in square feet divided by the total weight of the person, and gear to include the main..

Not meaning to be a snooty snoo here, but isn't it weight/sqft... giving you pounds to square feet? That's how you calculated it later in your post but I didn't want anyone getting confused

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[Ron 10]

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Not meaning to be a snooty snoo here, but isn't it weight/sqft... giving you pounds to square feet? That's how you calculated it later in your post but I didn't want anyone getting confused

good catch.

Its fixed.

What do you want? Im at work.

Now all I need is Kallend comming in and telling me I got some physics wrong.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mcrocker 0]

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Bigger tends to be slower...and slower tends to be safer....Going backwards is the only situation that I can think of that makes bigger more dangerous...I can think of several issues that makes smaller more dangerous....And the bigger higher wind issue is easy to avoid...Don't jump in high winds.

Slower tends to mean lower pressure in the canopy cells. Lower pressure means the canopy can be more apt to deflate due to turbulence or a cross wind. Turblence and colapsing cells can send a skydiver into the dirt. Slower also means less energy. Energy is used to trade for lift during a flare so slower tends to lead to less powerful flares. You could still be going forwards and have a bad landing because you don't have enough energy for a good flare. Although, because you are slower you walk away instead of being carried away. Ron, I'm sure you know all this stuff, just wanted to point it out to those that may not.