JDBoston 0 #101 January 29, 2004 In skydiving, your body is moving unstoppably towards a solid object at speeds approximately 5-10x the speed it's designed to go. You have NOTHING physically protecting you (OK, a helmet, useful in some situations) besides your own ability to slow your descent by deploying a nylon device and piloting it correctly. Seemingly minor, brief mistakes WILL have disproportionately serious consequences, especially if they happen close to the ground. In driving, you can steer away from objects, speed up, or put the brakes on, and you have thousands of pounds of metal and plastic plus (often) airbags to protect you, should something go wrong. Skydiving is NOT safer than driving. You are dead every single time, until you manage to save yourself COMPLETELY by deploying, landing, and walking back into the hangar. My $0.02, Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #102 January 29, 2004 ..... and that's why I stick to vertical wind tunnels for my flying, no need to risk my life for a really awesome flight!!!! Quoteyou can steer away from objects, speed up, or put the brakes on your ASSUMING that I'm even aware of the danger, as if the impending doom is something I have control over... I have control over pulling or not... and steering away from objects, and speeding up my freefall, and SLOWING down my freefall, as well as slowing it down with that nylon device you mention... No argument on whether it's dangerous, but I still believe you can eliminate much of the danger... I certainly worry more about hurting myself skiing! but maybe that's the tunnel time talking... or all the really AWESOME skydiving instructors I've had... plan your jump and jump your plan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #103 January 29, 2004 In driving, not only are you often aware of the danger, but you're moving at speeds slow enough that you have time to at least partially react. Hence there are usually skid marks etc. at accident sites. Might not save you 100% but it's better than nothing. And in a car, you can change your trajectory or speed dramatically, MUCH, MUCH more quickly and easily than in skydiving or skiing. In skydiving, you can eliminate a lot of the risk, sure, but the very nature of the activity (high speed and lack of protection) means that small fuckups and moments of inattention will still often have very magnified consequences. If you freeze or get distracted for a moment in most activities, no biggie. If you do it skydiving at the wrong time - say, close to the ground, or diving on a formation, you're broken or dead. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #104 January 29, 2004 QuoteIf you freeze or get distracted for a moment in most activities, no biggie. If you do it skydiving at the wrong time - say, close to the ground, or diving on a formation, you're broken or dead.Freeze? Distracted? Guess you shouldn't do that then huh? I appreciate the severity of skydiving for sure and your hearfelt obligation to make sure I understand... but I'll stick to the opinions of all the old timers I know in this sport with thousands of skydives each.... "It takes more than one mistake on a single jump to end in disaster" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #105 January 29, 2004 Your just trying to scare the newbies.. fear will paralyze you.. RESPECT will empower you.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #106 January 29, 2004 QuoteYour just trying to scare the newbies.. not only are you sadly mistaken.... Quote but I'll stick to the opinions of all the old timers I know in this sport with thousands of skydives each.... "It takes more than one mistake on a single jump to end in disaster" you seem to be misinformed. maybe you should talk to a few more 'old-timers' QuoteRESPECT will empower you.. respect is a fine quality but i will choose knowledge and experience every time. good luck.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #107 January 29, 2004 Quote "It takes more than one mistake on a single jump to end in disaster" Dawn -- It only takes ONE mistake to die in skydiving. In fact, it doesn't take ANY mistakes to die in skydiving. In fact, you can do EVERYTHING RIGHT and still die. I want you to consider that you -may- have a false sense of reality based on your high amount of tunnel time compared with your fairly low amount of actual jumps. You don't have to agree with me -- just consider it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #108 January 29, 2004 QuoteI'll stick to the opinions of all the old timers I know in this sport with thousands of skydives each.... Does 10 years and 3,000 jumps count? (and BTW over 100 hrs of tunnel as well.) Skydiving is NOT safe. If you think its safe you are fooling yourself. Once you leave the plane you are a course to death, unless you change it. And even when you try to change it it can go wrong. Quote"It takes more than one mistake on a single jump to end in disaster" Wrong...One mistake will kill you...Hell as quade already pointed out..You can do everything right and still die."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #109 January 29, 2004 QuoteIn fact, you can do EVERYTHING RIGHT and still die QuoteJust read the incident reports and accident reports on here. Yes!! Let's DO that.... Like elfanie, I feel that instead of telling me that, why don't you back it up? Let's make it educational...instead of a debate... (I hope this doesn't offend anyone) Unnamed jumper: was attempting a "high performance" parachute landing when a low turn went wrong and he hit the ground at high speed --Swooping? No doubt dangerous, high wing loading not recommended, high speed approach not recommended and low turns to the ground, again not recommended. Unnamed jumper: broke the tib/fib...Wind conditions were 11-15 mph, the last gust was 22 mph twenty minutes before the call to load. --violated the USPA's Basic Safety Requirements which states that the Max. speeds for solo students is 14 MPH. - shouldn't have gotten IN the plane, CERTAINLY shouldn't have gotten OUT of the plane. Unnamed jumper: surgery, couple of screws in the ankle, broken fibula --he proves the point himself by saying: learn from my mistake; don't jump in high winds. It simply is'nt worth it. Always trust your instincts, there is nothing wrong with riding back down on the airplane. Unnamed jumper: has a high speed cutaway --he proves the point himself by saying: Double check your gear, have a head's up buddy check your gear, leave enough altitude at pull time to handle a malfunction. and the reports go on, and on and on... Unnamed jumper: death was an aortic rupture caused by a hard opening. --now there is a did everything right... QuoteDon't you find it interesting that almost everyone with over 1,000 jumps does not call skydiving safe? I haven't seen but just a couple of people here with THOSE kind of jump numbers. Ron - QuoteDoes 10 years and 3,000 jumps count? (and BTW over 100 hrs of tunnel as well.) You know as well as I do, that tunnel time only means generally that you will be a better "freefaller" than someone of like jump numbers and no tunnel time, no bearing whatsoever on airplanes, wind direction, parachutes, rigs, other jumpers, canopy flights etc... And yes your jump numbers count, of course they do, so help me out with REAL facts on this thread. QuoteBooth's law #2 states "The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant." This is a generality that all skydivers are willing to push the limits, some of us are not. btw, I know Bill Booth too, and would still say the same thing directly to him (and next time I see him I will discuss it with him I promise) Much like the Anti-Drug campaigns, these posts are filled with lots of opinion instead of facts... help a junior jumper out with some REAL information that can educate me... QuoteI want you to consider that you -may- have a false sense of reality based on your high amount of tunnel time compared with your fairly low amount of actual jumps. Considering...... hmmm.. 'false sense of reality'. Still considering.... perhaps I do. I have had recurrency training every year, and jump as conservatively as an AFF student... besides my freefly time from 13-6.5k, but until you prove otherwise with facts... I'll have to go with the opinions of my instructors & coaches. NOW, if you take the other side of it.... how in the world do you EVER jump from a plane without already knowing how to fly? I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE. I would probably be MORE scared if that were the case.. fortunatly, I did and as such I don't have the worry of altitude awareness, uncontrolled turns, losing heading or perspective, not even with a problem... hell my avatar shows me with no goggles over Titusville.. yes I had them had to borrow them (thanks Joao) and they didn't fit well AT ALL once in freefall... but without my training, it could've been disasterous, no doubt. Getting hurt, reserve rides, poor spots, off landings, these are things I've come to accept from skydiving, but death at my own hands?? not so sure about that one. That's why I keep it to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way... but according to your definitions, tunnelflying isn't safe either with a 20ft fall possible or colliding with surrounding hard structures. Sure we tell them they COULD die, cuz ANYONE can die at any time... but seriously, and more realistically, it's unlikely (never in 20+ years that we know about) Let's educate, aside of NOT PULLING, what ONE mistake can you make that will result in DEATH. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #110 January 29, 2004 QuoteYes!! Let's DO that.... Ok, we can play that. But its clear you are another person who is "right" and will not listen. QuoteSwooping? No doubt dangerous, high wing loading not recommended, high speed approach not recommended and low turns to the ground, again not recommended. Who said a high wingloading is not recomended? I have several jumps at 2.5 to one, and Im fine. Quoteviolated the USPA's Basic Safety Requirements which states that the Max. speeds for solo students is 14 MPH. - shouldn't have gotten IN the plane, CERTAINLY shouldn't have gotten OUT of the plane. She was not a student...so the BSR did not apply to her. Im not going into each accident...Besides you are already wrong on two. QuoteI haven't seen but just a couple of people here with THOSE kind of jump numbers Thats becasue most jumpers with over 1,000 jumps don't waste time typing to folks with 100 that "know everything". I for some stupid reason still try to make a difference. But everytime I encounter a 100jump wonder that "knows" more than me a little bit of that dies. QuoteMuch like the Anti-Drug campaigns, these posts are filled with lots of opinion instead of facts... help a junior jumper out with some REAL information that can educate me... What more REAL info do you need? One mistake can kill you.....You are going 120 mph at the ground...You a soft non armored mostly liquid, slamming into a rock at 120 mph...Relying on some fabric that can malfunction, explode, and fail in ways that you can't even imagine. If it does not work, or you fail to operate the system in the correct way you will smash into the ground like a water ballon from 3 stories up. Quotehell my avatar shows me with no goggles over Titusville.. yes I had them had to borrow them (thanks Joao) and they didn't fit well AT ALL once in freefall... but without my training, it could've been disasterous, no doubt. Ive seen AFF students lose goggles and not even know they lost them...so this shows that even without hundreds of hrs of tunnel folks can handle things without problems. QuoteGetting hurt, reserve rides, poor spots, off landings, these are things I've come to accept from skydiving, but death at my own hands?? not so sure about that one. That's why I keep it to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way Why are you even on a skydiving site...It seems all you want to do is bash real skydiving? skydiving is not safe. Get that into your head. QuoteLet's educate, aside of NOT PULLING, what ONE mistake can you make that will result in DEATH. From this year...not a no pull. http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2004&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2004&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D Jumper pulled, but could not make a safe landing...He is dead. http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2003&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2003&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D Just last year read 1,3,5,6,7,9,12,17,21,22 1. Something happened while he was in freefall after breakoff that made it so he landed knocked out under an AAD fire and hit a post and died. Open canopy...still dead. 3. The FAA designated parachute rigger examiner who inspected the equipment found that the steering lines on this equipment could feasibly be trapped when under a load and held in a turning position. A mal that before this most could not imagine. Still she pulled. 5. The jumper was part of a larger freefly group and collided during break-off rendering them both unconcious. The AADs of both jumpers deployed their reserves. One jumper was able to walk away but the other passed away next morning in the hospital. Collision. 6. The jumper was observed at approximately 400 feet under a fully functioning canopy. When next observed at approximately 200-300 the jumper appeared to have twists in his canopy. Winds were approximately 15-20 knots and the jumper was in a turbulent area over large trees and downwind of a hangar. It is not know if the turbulence and/or control inputs induced the twists. The jumper was unable to clear the twists before landing and hit at high speed. Despite swift medical assistance, the jumper died of his injuries. A jumper that had pulled encountered a mal DURRING his canopy ride.(for the record I was one of the medical people there..And I saw him hit.) 7. The jumper was diving down to join to complete a seven way formation skydive but was unable to stop before he collided with another jumper hard Another collision. 9. Two jumpers collided at approximately 30 to 50 feet while on final approach toward the entry gate of a swoop course. And another, this time under canopy...Both had PULLED. 12. Apparently, the failure of the left side of the harness caused the student to suddenly drop in the narness and catch his chin on the chest strap, breaking his neck Just from last year...this jumper did everything right and still died. 17. Inspection of the equipment revealed that the steering line on the right side of the canopy had become entangled with the locking tab of one of the fabric-style connector links used to attach the canopy suspension lines to the riser. Another line issue...Still, she had PULLED. 21. Not an easy situation to deal with. The outcome may have been different if the deceased had cutaway first. Then again, he may have impacted without pulling anything after wasting time cutting away. This jumper didn't give up and nor should you. This guy did everything right...And yet he is still dead. 22. This jumper collided with the canopy of his fiancé at approximately 100 feet. He later died from his injuries Another canopy collision. They both had PULLED. So you askedQuoteLet's educate, aside of NOT PULLING, what ONE mistake can you make that will result in DEATH. And I didn't even include panic turns and hook turns. We have 2 freefall collisions, 2 canopy collisions, two that did everything right and still died, 3 malfunctions that no one thought of before and one that is iffy when it happens all the time. And this is just last year. 2 that did everything right and died...just last year. You want me to go on?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #111 January 29, 2004 >I'll have to go with the opinions of my instructors & coaches. Its an instructors job to instill confidence into their student. If an instructor can'nt take an extreemly sacred and frightened student and convince them that everything will be ok, then the instructor is'nt that good of an instructor. Trusting just an instructor is'nt always the best idea. Unless you instructor is telling you you can die even after doing every thing correctly, they are'nt being 100% honest with you.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #112 January 29, 2004 QuoteShe was not a student...so the BSR did not apply to her.....Who said a high wingloading is not recomended? I have several jumps at 2.5 to one, and Im fine.........Im not going into each accident...Besides you are already wrong on two. How so? The SHE you refer to was a HE, and well who says? Manufacturers of those nylon life saving devices.... who recommend 1lb per square foot, I just called PD to verify, they said you could download it on their site in the Education section and what they offer as far a guidelines for those like you. QuoteAnd this is just last year. 2 that did everything right and died...just last year. You want me to go on? Apparently so, and others as well, but without the anger please. I am sorry if my curiousity annoys you, no harm intended for sure, but if your unwilling to educate, why are you here in a safety & training forum? Your first example: suffered a bad spot, placing him in the vicinity of a swamp and the winds were high. The jumper appeared to be heading for a clear area, but made a low turn (possibly a 90 to a downwind, to avoid powerlines and/or trees 2 MAJORLY avoidable mistakes... getting out with a bad spot, low turns to the ground Second Link: 1: hit a fence upon landing under a Cypres deployed reserve (this is an example of only 1 mistake? looks like no pull & no plan doesn't count) 3: USPA conclusion Faced with a bad spot, jumpers should plan high enough to fly a safe landing approach into a clear area. Turns must be completed in time for the canopy to recover to straight and level flight for the landing flare. (2 mistakes) 5: USPA again -Winds were reported to be ten to seventeen mph, and the jumper was in an area where turbulence may have been a factor. The jumper had insufficient altitude to safely initiate a cutaway and was apparently unable to recover from the line twists. USPA receives reports of this type of jumper-induced malfunction (this may be two in one... insufficient altitude, awareness.. hard turn at 250agl?) The next one #6(not 7): USPA says: Either jumping within his limits, wearing a helmet or jumping a larger canopy may have changed the outcome of this accident. 9: USPA says he had a HIGH wing loading and made a 180 turn at an EXTREMELY low altitude (2 mistakes again) Next: Two jumpers collided at approximately 30 to 50 feet while on final approach toward the entry gate of a swoop course. ... USPA says that the high wing loading and that you should be "be prepared to abort their original landing plans in case of traffic problems or other hazards." How does this prove your point that 1 SINGLE mistake will result in DEATH? Why are you so annoyed by having to support your statements? As far as being another person who is "right" I think that you have a short temper and are easily insulted when I apparently won't "Just take your word for it" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #113 January 29, 2004 THANK YOU! Your probably right, I keep saying " If I thought I was going to DIE, I wouldn't have done it" Of course there are unforseen circumstances, but I have much more control over those than some would like me to believe!!! So I thank him for not trying to SCARE me to death... I appreciate that. And that's why I still spend money on jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #114 January 29, 2004 QuoteApparently so, and others as well, but without the anger please. I am sorry if my curiousity annoys you, no harm intended for sure, but if your unwilling to educate, why are you here in a safety & training forum? Im more than willing to teach, been doing it since 1994. But are you really willing to listen? QuoteThe SHE you refer to was a HE We seem to have two accidents. Quote2 MAJORLY avoidable mistakes... getting out with a bad spot, low turns to the ground Bad spot I'll give you. But you yourself said that you have learned to expect them QuoteGetting hurt, reserve rides, poor spots, off landings, these are things I've come to accept from skydiving And for the record his canopy snagged a tree that casued the turn...so thats ONE mistake. Quotethis is an example of only 1 mistake? looks like no pull & no plan doesn't count He was passed out before the canopy deployed, by his AAD...Hell, your right..NO mistake. QuoteHow does this prove your point that 1 SINGLE mistake will result in DEATH? Hell, I have shown you where 2 freefall colisions killed people (One mistake). 2 canopy collisions have killed people (one mistake). 2 toggles got stuck (one mistake). One where a guy just seemed to pass out. And TWO where the folks did everything right and still died. Plus all those hook turns are ONE mistake. You asked for examples I gave you plenty...Fell free to ignore me, and them. QuoteWhy are you so annoyed by having to support your statements? As far as being another person who is "right" I think that you have a short temper and are easily insulted when I apparently won't "Just take your word for it" Maybe Im just tired of trying to get folks that think they know everything to realize they don't? I have more "real" freefall time than you have "simulated"...I also have more tunnel time than you do BTW. But you want to sit there and ignore me fine...What the hell would I know? Im done here people like you that "know it all" at 50 jumps are not worth my time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #115 January 29, 2004 QuoteMaybe Im just tired of trying to get folks that think they know everything to realize they don't? Are you kidding with that? Your an instructor, how can you be annoyed with inexperienced jumpers? Perhaps you should take a break? Step down off that cloud and come back down to earth with me here... QuoteI have more "real" freefall time than you have "simulated"...I also have more tunnel time than you do arent you re-iterating the same point twice here? Is there some kind of competition going on here? You also have thousands more jumps than I yet, your the one getting bent out of shape here, as if somehow I am insulting you or your experience... QuoteBut you want to sit there and ignore me fine...What the hell would I know? Nice, really nice way to encourage and motivate. And as far as QuoteIt seems all you want to do is bash real skydiving I think you need to step back and read without your personal defense mechanism... I'm the one here who believes in the safety of it.. oh, and I didn't know, but is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make? That could help with practicing without risking my life!!! Quoteskydiving is not safe. Get that into your head as IF I didn't already KNOW that... The poll is Skydiving is one of the safest risky sports!!! no wonder noone wants to participate here... it's ends up being a witch hunt!! I USED to believe that I didn't have to do anything to my canopy to get a 'safe unbroken bone' landing. I have since seen a report where that was proven to be untrue... and now I know better (he still didn't die) I wish you weren't so angry, I might've liked to talk to you in person about this since we apparently cross paths weekly... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #116 January 29, 2004 >but is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make? That could help with practicing without risking my life!!! Yep.. its called Tunnel time. If you get tired or have a problem you just have the operator turn off the fan and the ride is over.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #117 January 29, 2004 Quotebut is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make? That could help with practicing without risking my life!!! Yep.. its called Tunnel time Very Cute!! and thats a very good tip, if I do say so myself!! but it still isn't practicing skydiving..just freefall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #118 January 29, 2004 Quote is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make Tunnel time - doesnt feel like real freefall - its close but no cigar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #119 January 29, 2004 Quote how in the world do you EVER jump from a plane without already knowing how to fly? I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE. People do it all the time. AFF, static line . . . The reason is because the body flight portion of the skydive is usually least important part of the skydive. Let me repeat the key phrase, the body flight portion of the skydive is usually least important part of the skydive. For some, it may be the most fun, social and most competitive and for those reasons may be the reasons why they choose to skydive, but it is usually the least important part of the skydive. Like I said, I think you have a false sense of reality base on your tunnel time vs. actually skydiving experience. A person who is introduced to the tunnel before skydiving and spends an inordinate amount of time in and around the tunnel might come to believe that the tunnel represents pretty much all there is to skydiving. Heck, there are people that have been in skydiving for years, are introduced to the tunnel and come to feel this way. It's simply wrong. You can't do everything in a tunnel you can during an actual skydive and because of this, you are not exposed to the same dangers. Let's just look at the minutes of tunnel time you claim in your profile. Quote Number of Jumps: 28/1,440 min. flying 1440 minutes is 24 hours. In terms of skydiving, that represents a nice chunk of experience gained over perhaps as long as five years of more than an average amount of skydiving. In that time at a busy drop zone, that skydiver would have done perhaps 1440 jumps, maybe a few more but more importantly would have seen numerous other skydiviers carted away in ambulances on their way to the hospital or morgue. I know that by the time I had past the 24 hour freefall mark I had seen far more fatalities than I had ever cared to before I entered the sport. I'm guessing it doesn't take all that long to rack up 24 hours of tunnel time. I'm also guessing in that time, you'll never see a single person go to the morgue. Again, I want you to consider that you may have a false sense of reality when it comes to the dangers of skydiving.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #120 January 29, 2004 QuoteA person who is introduced to the tunnel before skydiving and spends an inordinate amount of time in and around the tunnel might come to believe that the tunnel represents pretty much all there is to skydiving Gee I'm glad that isn't directed at me (ducks and misses the hit) Since nearly everywhere I post I reiterate that the two are not the same, and tunnel training has no impact on skydiving, only freefall. QuoteYou can't do everything in a tunnel you can during an actual skydive and because of this, you are not exposed to the same dangers Couldn't have said it better myself. I lived on the DZ in DeLand for a short time (RV slot #4) heck I live 12 miles from there now. I see it happening all the time...just a week or so ago as a matter of fact... no false sense of security there. I've been studying you skydivers and your behavior since 1998. It never ceases to amaze me. But when the people educating me have been in this sport since the beginning, I can't help but believe them. Quade, I thank you for your smooth approach to the subject... I still on a basic level couldn't agree with you more about the possible dangers... Quotere: tunnelflying --you'll never see a single person go to the morgue I only wish the insurance people would believe that!!! If it is so imminently dangerous, why do we take people(students) on skydives when they couldn't possibly appreciate the danger of it... isn't that irresponsible? I think it's because we have eliminated all of the risks that are possible to eliminate, therebye making it as safe as it can possibly be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #121 January 29, 2004 Quote I think it's because we have eliminated all of the risks that are possible to eliminate, therebye making it as safe as it can possibly be. That reminds me of a quote from the movie "The Princess Bride". "I said mostly dead. Mostly. Mostly dead is not the same thing as completely dead." In other words, it's as safe as it can be but that isn't to say that even with all of the care, attention and handholding that instructors give their student, occasionally one doesn't just flat out kill himself. You're right, most students really have no idea what they're getting into. Is that irresponsible? No. Naive of them maybe, but not particularly irresponsible on the part of the instructors or drop zone. I mean, it says right on the waiver they can die.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #122 January 29, 2004 Still trying to learn here..... ok?? Please define "occasionally" as in your sentence: even with all of the care, attention and handholding that instructors give their student, occasionally one doesn't just flat out kill himself. I wonder how often is occasional compared to the numbers of student, aff and one time jumpers there are every day. 1 occasional for every 5k jumps? 10k? Would these statistics assist with deciding the approximately safety level as compared to other risky sports? for the sake of the thread of course... Thank you again for continuing with me... I always have been over-inquisitive and insistent.... I only mean it with the best of intentions.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #123 January 29, 2004 Are you familiar with http://www.skydivenet.com/fatalities/? It's not a complete record, nor is it up-to-date, but it is worth browsing through.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #124 January 29, 2004 what does 2.5 deaths per 1000 UPSA members tell us... out of 30,000 members approximately 75 will die? or did die that year? don't know how to figure odds but is that 1 in 400 members that year? That's a high number for sure... wonder what it's like today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #125 January 29, 2004 www.skydivingfatalities.info is more up to date I think.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
