Potentially dangerous situation in thick cloud - any advice?

[Peej 0]

Hey all,

I was wondering if some of the experienced jumpers can offer some advice for a potentially dangerous situation that ocurred to myself and a jump partner on Saturday.

Around 5pm we climb in the Porter for the second last load of the day. A 2 way FS, a 4 way FS, a solo flat flier and myself and a friend on a 2 way freefly.

It's summer here and afternoon clouds/thunderstorms are common so we notice the thick cloud at various altitudes on our way to the top. We get to 11 grand, the door opens and the 2 way exits (they went out first because one of the guys flys a small canopy and likes to be in front of the traffic pattern).

The four way takes extra long in the door because one of the girls was a little confused as to which side she should take her grips on. We were giving a ten count and they took at least a 20 count.

My partner and i look at each other knowing the spot is gonna be bad, but they eventually they exit and the solo follows a ten count after.

By now the plane has flown into thick, thick cloud and it's bucking up and down when Pears and i get ready to go.

We perform an unlinked sit exit into the cloud and stay within six feet of each other but the cloud is so thick already i can hardly see him.

We fall for a bit, maintaining levels and then his feet pop and he goes a little high, i can now just see his siloutte a little above me. I see him pop into a stand to get down me and then he's gone in the cloud. Dissapeared.

I wait a bit longer hoping i'll see him again and then have to put my alti right in front of my face to see it and it reads about 6. Now I know the last time i saw him he was above me so i try to maintain a constant fall rate and hope this cloud ends before break off.

I come out of the cloud as my 4500 dytter goes. Now what? I don't know where he is so where should i track? I go flat, swing a quick 360 deg turn to have a look for him, don't see him so i pick a spot that i think is away from him and aim on getting there as fast as possible.

I come out of my track, wave off, pitch and i'm in the saddle at 3 grand. I notice Pears' canopy opening below me. Luckily we'd tracked off along the lines of a V and there was actually some nice vert and horiz separation.

Now all we had to do was fly back from a seriously deep spot. We both landed just off the DZ and had a short walk back.

Comments?

Is there a better way to handle this kind of situation?

I mean I've fallen through cloud on jumps before but never for 5500 feet!

Any advice is appreciated!
safe skies
PJ

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[sducoach 0]

I don't know who's judgment to question first, yours or the pilot's.

In the United States you would have been violating Federal Aviation Regulations in doing what you have described.

The best method is to avoid experiencing this again by maintaining cloud clearances. Both skydivers and the aircraft.

Try what Derek says............ Think!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[quade 4]

It's generally considered to be bad form if you exit the plane and can't see the ground -at all-.

Once the plane entered the cloud you should have asked for a go around.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Tonto 1]

Hi PJ,

There are rules against this sort of thing in the US.
CAA here has no such concerns, but regardless of which country you're in, and whether or not the rules apply, there is still far more risk involved when you enter a cloud, and those rules exist elsewhere for good reason.

First prize would be to ask the pilot for a go around, and I'm sure he would have obliged. Our separation count is based on the upper winds of the day, (Longer for into the wind strong uppers, shorter for no/light uppers) but remember that the count starts when the group exits, and ends when you exit, so for example, if your climbout takes 7 seconds, plus a "Ready, Set, Go!" you can start climbing out right after the group before you.

Second prize? Don't know. I've seen jumpers come down bleeding from hail - a constant risk during African summers. If I found myself in that position, I'd be tracking 90 degrees to line of flight - but that opens the debate of whether or not you even knew which direction you were facing at the point the seperation occured.

You did OK, but it's better not to even get into the situation. As we've seen, this was an events cascade started by the run-in towards the cloud, compounded with a slow climbout by the 4 way and culminating in your guesswork as to where your jump partner was.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[fudd 0]

We don't got the strict cloud rules in Norway either.
If there are clouds and and I'm doing a jump in which I know we can loose visual contact we always agree on which direction we are going to separate.
i.e. I'll track off to the east, and you to the west. (line of flight north/south)
In a three way one person can take the cameraman spot, and one to the east and one to the west. (assuming there is no cameraman ofcourse.)

Also if seperation takes place when still in the clouds, one could take the cameraman spot and the other could track away. However, maybe one shouldn't be jumping then, at least not with people you don't know you can stay within visible range to.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[mr2mk1g 10]

In Britain we are not quite so worried about cloud as they are in the US. You would still have been breaking some quite serious rules by exiting as you did if you were in the UK. We must be able to see some ground somewhere from both the plane and the opening height.

I have to say, I wouldn't have exited. A go-arround, or maybe ride down if you can no longer find a good spot. Its your life dude, don't jump if its not safe to do so.

[pds 0]

Quote

By now the plane has flown into thick, thick cloud and it's bucking up and down when Pears and i get ready to go.

We perform an unlinked sit exit into the cloud and stay within six feet of each other but the cloud is so thick already i can hardly see him.
.
.
.
.
Is there a better way to handle this kind of situation?

<-- scratching head: troll? lol.

ummm.... dont jump into a cloud?

namaste, motherfucker.

[Peej 0]

Very funny but i meant other than the obvious.

After we landed we spoke to the other jumpers on the load and no one experienced what we did. In hindsight a go-around would have been the best option. But i'll admit the thought didn't occur to either of us.

Thanks for the advice.

safe skies
PJ

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[crutch 0]

Definitely a case for a go-around, getting out into a known thick cloud........geez, what were you thinking!

These are the jumps I don't understand, just remember the sun is going to come up tomorrow and you can jump again then.

blue skies,

art

[JKT 0]

Once out and in the cloud, wouldn't it have been far more sensible to have linked up and stayed in visual contact straight down the tube until either the cloud cleared or breakoff? That way you would know that when you turned to track, you definitely weren't heading straight into the same airspace as the other person/people, even if you couldn't see each other during the track. Not the world's most exciting freefall granted, but that would be the point in this situation, no?

-----

Official 100 jump wonder

[jerry81 10]

Okay, now that we've determined that jumping through thick clouds is not that smart...
Did you ever check the air above you when you came out of the cloud or at least before you pulled? I would definitely roll over/look up a)before going flat from the sit, to prevent corking into the person above and b)before pulling, because I'd rather be open a few hundred feet lower than risk (however small the chances may be) having someone above me when I pull.

---

[btucker 0]

A go around *could* have made this situation more dangerous - seek expert advice. There is the danger that you could have fallen through the previous group(s), worse yet if they where a tandom* or other high openers. Often 4ways open high (easier to see the ground when belly flying) when the spot is shit.

While your talking to the CI/DZSO please ask them about exit order re the 4way 2way thing. Last years double tragedy at Nagambie...



In Australia we have jumped through cloud all the time (as part of a trial with CASA) we always had a plan, usually dock, grip or just grab! Often beginners wouldn't go up in clound due to the danger of losing each other.

You should know what to do when you open in cloud too - I've had the pleasure of a canopy collision with a team mate due to low dense cloud.



* I can still remember the CI's "advice" from when we made this mistake.


Blue ones, Benno

[Taz 0]

Hi peej,
I understand the kind of advice you're looking for, but let me also point out a whole bunch of stuff that is wrong with what happened.

Quote

the 2 way exits (they went out first because one of the guys flys a small canopy and likes to be in front of the traffic pattern).

Canopy size and/or wing loading are not on the list of factors we consider when determining exit order on a normal jump run. Lots of us fly small canopies: because I jump a Stiletto 97, can I get out first even though I'm freeflying? No.

Quote

My partner and i look at each other knowing the spot is gonna be bad, but they eventually they exit and the solo follows a ten count after.

So you already "know" the spot is going to be bad, before it's even your turn to get to the door. Answer #1 is right there: listen to your internal alarm system. That's how events cascades start.

Quote

By now the plane has flown into thick, thick cloud and it's bucking up and down when Pears and i get ready to go.

Okay. Why are you getting ready to go in this situation? Is the potential to avoid serious, life-threatening danger somehow not worth sucking up the R145 if you ride the plane down and don't get your money back? Asking for a go-around would have been another option, as others have pointed out. This would have dealt with the spot, too. Yes, thunderstorms are common, but that doesn't make them any less dangerous, especially given that you were freeflying, had planned an unlinked exit, and are not at the experience level to be confident that you would maintain proximity throughout the skydive. Knowing your limits is a big part of staying alive.

Quote

We fall for a bit, maintaining levels and then his feet pop and he goes a little high, i can now just see his siloutte a little above me. I see him pop into a stand to get down me and then he's gone in the cloud. Dissapeared.

When it comes to freeflying, the higher speeds obviously mean more risk of separation in freefall and high-speed collision. Were you jumping with a Cypres? Was Pears? Have you thought about the fact that a collision could have killed you both? Especially if you are unsure of your ability to maintain proximity, quite simply don't go through with the jump.

Quote

Luckily we'd tracked off along the lines of a V and there was actually some nice vert and horiz separation.

When the word "luck" factors heavily into why you did not die this past weekend, all I can do is seriously urge you to think about what made you exit the aircraft in obviously unsafe conditions. The club largely leaves decisions about boarding the airplane and jumping out of the airplane a matter of personal choice for licensed skydivers. Marginal weather conditions do not stop jumping unless the licensed jumpers decide to walk back from boarding point or ride the plane down, or ask for a go-around.

As others have pointed out, the jump would never have been allowed in the US. Here, though, it's up to you. I don't think it can be over-emphasized that it is ALWAYS a matter of life and death. I've walked back from boarding point with winds up to 25, when the plane was ready to take off. I've ridden the plane down when golfball-sized hailstones were hitting the windscreen and other people were jumping out. There's always time for another jump, but only if you're not dead (or really, really bruised from getting hit with hail at 120mph).

Thanks for posting. The fact that you're still thinking about it shows that you realize how serious the consequences could have been. Again, trust your instincts. Life or death can sometimes boil down to a simple choice. There were obviously several points before you left the plane when you knew it was probably a bad idea; the next step from there is to act on that information instead of ignoring it.

I'm really glad you guys landed safely, and if I sound like a broken record, it's because I care that you continue to land safely.

Blue skies. -T

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[Taz 0]

Quote

In hindsight a go-around would have been the best option. But i'll admit the thought didn't occur to either of us.

Just one more thing:

A go-around would only have made this a better option if you had found a good spot to exit, clear of the other jumpers' airspace, that did not have thick and heavy cloud. If you had asked for a go-around and ended up in or right near the same kind of cloud, the right decision would be to NOT EXIT. -T

It's the Year of the Dragon.

[Peej 0]

Hey Taya,

I think the realisation about just how ugly things could have gotten hit us after we opened safely and especially when we landed and discussed it.

I've also realised that sometimes common sense needs to overrule the stoke of being in the plane knowing you're about to do a cool jump.

Next time, and i'm glad there's going to be a next time, we'll think first. And in the mean time try to learn from the experience.

Thanks for the advice safe skies
PJ

PS. Your post had no broken record vibes at all, any and all advice is much appreciated and respected. See you on the wknd.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[rhino 0]

#1.. Turn the plane until you can see the DZ.. Not doing so will get you in trouble..

#2.. Start wearing a portable GPS unit ;)

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

i.e. I'll track off to the east, and you to the west. (line of flight north/south)

This wouldn't work for me because I don't jump with a compass, so if I'm in the middle of a big puffy, I would have no idea where North or the line of flight is.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[pds 0]

Quote

Quote

i.e. I'll track off to the east, and you to the west. (line of flight north/south)

This wouldn't work for me because I don't jump with a compass, so if I'm in the middle of a big puffy, I would have no idea where North or the line of flight is.

generally when i am on a 2 way one person tracks the other pulls in place. this probably wont help though if you are in clouds and don't know where you partner is.

namaste, motherfucker.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Very funny but i meant other than the obvious.

Just put one of these babies on your helmet. There's no problem a little extra gear and duct tape can't solve.

[Peej 0]

ROFL!!!

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[shmali 0]

Hmm, now where are you going to plug that in....

Pineappe Death Juice, If you have to ask you'd rather not know!

[jsaxton 0]

If you're really sub 100 jumps then you're right, you probably wouldn't be able to determine jump run while you're in clouds. Later (perhaps much later) you will be able to by inertial reckoning.

[quade 4]

Quote

Later (perhaps much later) you will be able to by inertial reckoning.

No. That's not possible. The human sensory system simply isn't up to the task.

This is among the reasons why non-IFR rated pilots die.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sducoach 0]

Quade,

Your point is a bit extreme. Not all non-rated IFR pilots die when they fly into/through a cloud.

Spatial Disorientation or vertigo is a contributing cause of accidents in many occasions causing departure from controlled flight.

The real question is do you want to jump through or fly through IMC and run into the rated IFR pilot who is legal?

Common sense come into play somewhere around here.

Blues,

J.E.
ATP CFII ASMEL

James 4:8

[quade 4]

Who said anything about all?

I said, " . . . among the reasons . . . ".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver