Throw out for students

[mojoman 0]

Hi!

I'm an instructor in Sweden. We use ripcords for all our students, but people in charge are talking about switching to throw out for both JAD and AFF.

I don't see a problem for AFF, but how do you solve dummy throw outs for JAD students? As an instructor I want to see my JAD student throw some kind of dummy ripcord away, but I don't want to throw away a lot of ripcords... :)

How do you solve this problem?

Blue Skies,
/David

[DeNReN 0]

Is JAD the same as IAD(instructor aided deployment)?

Edited to add: my DZ puts a piece of newspaper in the p/c pouch for practice pulls on IAD progression to freefall.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Hi!

I'm an instructor in Sweden. We use ripcords for all our students, but people in charge are talking about switching to throw out for both JAD and AFF.

I don't see a problem for AFF, but how do you solve dummy throw outs for JAD students? As an instructor I want to see my JAD student throw some kind of dummy ripcord away, but I don't want to throw away a lot of ripcords... :)

How do you solve this problem?

When I did static line practice ripcord pulls in the US we used a dummy throw out but didn't actually throw it away, we held onto it. The practice pulling was mainly to show you could find it and remove it while arching and leaving the plane.

Skydive Fort Wayne had been doing that since around the mid 90's, because the owner, AJ, had always felt it was safest to start students on the pull method they'd be using as experienced skydivers. If you want you can contact them and ask more detailed questions about the method and any potential problems.

http://www.subterminal.com/skydiveftwayne/

[cruzit 0]

On our IAD students we used a knotted piece of bright yellow crepe paper stuffed into the pouch. Our throw out handles were the same color so the students didn't have to transition to looking for something a different color. Also the bright color made it really easy for the JM to see a successful practice throw.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

On our IAD students we used a knotted piece of bright yellow crepe paper stuffed into the pouch. Our throw out handles were the same color so the students didn't have to transition to looking for something a different color. Also the bright color made it really easy for the JM to see a successful practice throw.

Our ripcords were always mounted at about the BOC position, so 1. we could never see them and color wasn't important and 2. we always reach to the same place to pull, we just have to remember whether to throw it away or hold onto it. I have always gotten it right so far.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[bobsled92 0]

[ 2. we always reach to the same place to pull, we just have to remember whether to throw it away or hold onto it. I have always gotten it right so far.

[newshooter12 0]

my DZ has vests for practice with a BOC pouch on the back, red cutaway handle on some velcro and reserve handle in an elastic band on the front. All the parts line up at the right places. and work well for going through the drills. matt

[Cajones 0]

For AFF, it is a natural choice - teach students the skills that will be with them for the rest of their skydiving careers.

The main difficulty I've seen with using a BOC style "dummy pull" is in the movement of the container during/after deployment.

The BOC location is rather flacid after the main leaves the packing tray. This can make it difficult to locate the dummy handle.

- Cajones

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[mojoman 0]

Quote

Is JAD the same as IAD(instructor aided deployment)?

Yes. JAD=IAD
JAD= Jumpmaster Aided Deployment

[theskydiveguy 0]

Hi,

We just use "practice pulls" no throw out at all. You can see a video of it here http://www.swoop.on.ca/pff.html click on the video link to watch the video.

~Jeff
Monkey Brother #1
http://www.monkeybrothers.ca

[mojoman 0]

Quote

Hi,

We just use "practice pulls" no throw out at all. You can see a video of it here http://www.swoop.on.ca/pff.html click on the video link to watch the video.

~Jeff
Monkey Brother #1
http://www.monkeybrothers.ca

I'm not concerned about the AFF stuff. We use practice pulls today and it's basically the same procedure with throw out/ripcord.

The challenge is the IAD students. The altitude is low and I really want to know that my student throw out that PC before I let them off for their first "real" jump :)

[riggerrob 643]

Canadian DZs started giving throw-outs to students in 1979.

Most DZs ask students to toss two or three newspaper dummies before going freefall. The biggest problem was getting instructors to be consistent with the size of newspaper they used. Too many small dummy PCs blew out early.
I solved that problem by sewing together some dummy pilotchutes. They are made of Cordura stuffed with foam. A regular BOC handle is sewn to one end while a piece of bungee cord is sewn to the other end. A rubber band attaches the bungee cord to the corner of the container, tight enough that they won't lose the handle when they toss it, but loose enough that the rubber band will release if the dummy handle entangles with the deploying parachute.
The second scenario has not occurred in the last two years and we have never lost a handle.
Yes the container goes slack when empty, but that is just an extra challenge to see how they perform in less than perfect circumstances. Trust me, no student jump is perfect!

[Cajones 0]

That is the pucker factor every JM suffers for the first clear-and-pull.

Just make sure they are using the same procedure for their practice pulls as for their actual pull.

If their three stable practice pulls on static line/IAD are done with a ripcord, the first c&p should also be done with a ripcord. They can switch to a BOC/throwout some time after their 15 second delays.

- Cajones

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[Cajones 0]

Rob,

I was writing my reply when you posted, so I didn't see your solution until after my previous post...

Your rigging solution sounds nice. Are you stiffening the packing tray or BOC pouch in any way to minimize the effects of packing tray movement?

- Cajones

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

[ 2. we always reach to the same place to pull, we just have to remember whether to throw it away or hold onto it. I have always gotten it right so far.

I always wondered about little tunnel rats that get tunnel time and are used to no pull time?
I ask because of my children (If they decide)

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Rob,

I was writing my reply when you posted, so I didn't see your solution until after my previous post...

Your rigging solution sounds nice. Are you stiffening the packing tray or BOC pouch in any way to minimize the effects of packing tray movement?

- Cajones

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No, we are not stiffening the packing tray.
Our excuse - after the fact - is that the extra challenge is good at weeding out students who cannot handle minor changes in gear.

When I worked at Rigging Innovations, we did build a few Telesis student rigs with stiffeners in the side and bottom walls, specifically to address a problem they encountered at a JSPC, but we all agreed that it was a typical over-engineered British solution to a minor problem

[mojoman 0]

Quote

Canadian DZs started giving throw-outs to students in 1979.

Most DZs ask students to toss two or three newspaper dummies before going freefall. The biggest problem was getting instructors to be consistent with the size of newspaper they used. Too many small dummy PCs blew out early.
I solved that problem by sewing together some dummy pilotchutes. They are made of Cordura stuffed with foam. A regular BOC handle is sewn to one end while a piece of bungee cord is sewn to the other end. A rubber band attaches the bungee cord to the corner of the container, tight enough that they won't lose the handle when they toss it, but loose enough that the rubber band will release if the dummy handle entangles with the deploying parachute.
The second scenario has not occurred in the last two years and we have never lost a handle.
Yes the container goes slack when empty, but that is just an extra challenge to see how they perform in less than perfect circumstances. Trust me, no student jump is perfect!

Do you have some pictures of this solution?

Please :)

/David