WATCH FOR AIRCRAFT!

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

Sat. A.M. I was in the 3rd goup out, followed by tandums. In the saddle @ 2800, check traffic @ my alt. & above, collaps my slider, unstoe my breaks, make a 180 towards the DZ. HOLY SHIT! Half way though the turn I see a plane about 1000ft below flying though canopy traffic! He flew 200ft north of the 1st person out @ the same alt. John was flipping the pilot off & made eye contact!
We were flying west to the landing area, the plane came out of the east. I was the only person who saw the plane until it passed the other jumpers.
It ended up landing @ our airport. needless to say a number of people had a chat with him!

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"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[jlmiracle 7]

That took some ball by that guy to land at that airport. We had a similar problem a few years ago, but it wasa 12 way and just as we all tracked off and getting ready to deploy a cessna flys through - below Centers radar. He flew right between 2 people that were deploying. It was kinda funny cause you saw everyone turn towards the plane (like we were gonna chase it) and kick and yell and flip the guy off. He landed at a different airport. The plane didn't show up on Center's radar until after we had existed.

Yes, I do understand that they have a right to that airspace as much as we do, but damn, can't we all just communicate.

Glad to see no one was hurt.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,991]

>needless to say a number of people had a chat with him!

I hope your S+TA had a chat with you (or the person who spotted your load) as well. Both VFR aircraft and skydivers operate under see-and-be-seen rules, and they both have an equal right to be in the air over the DZ.

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

Our pilot & another pilot in the area had words over the radio, Our DZO drove over & spoke w/ him. Aparently he was very apologetic & had brainlocked as to which airport the call was from

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"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[lawrocket 3]

My last jump (in May) at Elsinore, I spotted an aircraft a few thousand feet below flying at a right angle to jump run - towards us. Unless the foks in the door actually poked their head out and looked under the Otter, there was no seeing it. I called out and waved them back in. I guess they knew I was a student so they disregarded it.

My instructor looked out and verified that, yep, I was right, and the S&TA happened to be on board and Lob called the next people in. We waited a couple of minutes for the next jump run. Big deal.

I learned spotting is the responsibility of everyone on the plane. I don't know what the plane was doing there. I did not care what the plane was doing there. My neophyte opinion is that it is my responsibility as a skydiver to avoid airborne hazards - and that means being vigilant in not just spotting the location, but spotting for things like airplanes flying to where I will be.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

I agree w/ you on spotting. In this case we had exited @ 14000 agl w/ the door facing west. The other plane was @ 1500 agl coming from the east. I never saw him until I was open. It would have been very difficult to have seen him on jump run,even if he had been approching from the west. In this case it was 100% pilot error, but, if I would have had a malfuntion it would have put both of us in the same place at hte same time! And most likly both of us would be DEAD!

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"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Both VFR aircraft and skydivers operate under see-and-be-seen rules, and they both have an equal right to be in the air over the DZ.

Yes, but parachutes have the rightaway. Also, the person who spoted the load may not have seen the aircraft, since depending on its type, it could have been over 3 miles away when they exited.

You know Bill, the pilot has a right to be over the airport, but having a right, doesn't make it right. Shit, you can be dead right, a lot of good it'll do ya.

So honestly, unless the asshat-pilot was circling over the DZ and the load went anyways, there's no point in the S&TA "chatting" with the spotter, since its not his/her fault. Its 100% the pilot of the VFR aircraft's fault.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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I see a plane about 1000ft below flying though canopy traffic!

This has been a problem for a long time, and is still unresolved, in my mind.

First, most people just wait for the green light these days, and exit like lemmings, without even bothering to look out the door and check the area below and around.

Second, when we do look out the door, we have a blind spot on the opposite side of the fuselage, where we can't see very well.

Third, a transient plane flying at 150 mph that will be in the same spot in the sky as skydivers when they open their chutes, is still 3 miles away at jumper exit time. Thus, they are very hard to see against the background of the earth, because they are a long way off, and tiny.

Fourth, the transient pilots may not be listening on the proper radio frequency to hear the two-minute jump warning.

Fifth, even if those pilots hear the radio call, they don't know the location from where it originates. Thus, they don't know what they can do to avoid the freefalling skydivers.

And lastly, pilots are trained that the safest way to fly over an airport on a cross-country flight, is to fly directly over the middle of the airport. That way they don't interfere with traffic approaching or taking off from either end of the runway. However, for a skydiving airport, that's a very bad place for them to be.

There are probably a few more factors that I can't think of right now.

This is why we have the "big sky" theory: This is the idea that there is so much uncrowded three-dimensional space, even if no one sees anyone else, the odds of a collision are still slim. Thank goodness this theory works well most of the time!

I'm not a pilot, and I welcome comments from them as to what they think can be done to improve things here.

[kallend 2,027]

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Quote

Both VFR aircraft and skydivers operate under see-and-be-seen rules, and they both have an equal right to be in the air over the DZ.

Yes, but parachutes have the rightaway.

Which FAR is that?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Quote

Both VFR aircraft and skydivers operate under see-and-be-seen rules, and they both have an equal right to be in the air over the DZ.

Yes, but parachutes have the rightaway. Also, the person who spoted the load may not have seen the aircraft, since depending on its type, it could have been over 3 miles away when they exited.

Parachutes do NOT have the right of way. In fact, we have an obligation under 105.5 to not create a hazard. Further, spotting isn't just for the spotter! Everybody on the load needs to check for traffic before every jump.

Please check out a couple of features I wrote on The Ranch web site. They are specific to The Ranch, but should help you to understand jumper responsibilities and the complexity of the airspace.

Please see http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article01.htm for some hints about who should be looking, where, when, and how. Please also see http://ranchskydive.com/safety/tb_article08.htm for a couple of charts of our airspace and a discussion of the specific regulations, as well as a briefing about why even a good pilot might stray over a drop zone.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Safety and Training Advisor
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[jlmiracle 7]

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Parachutes do NOT have the right of way. In fact, we have an obligation under 105.5 to not create a hazard. Further, spotting isn't just for the spotter! Everybody on the load needs to check for traffic before every jump.

I have always been told that parachutes have the right of way over a motorized vehicle.

Is this not true? If not, I have alot of azz's to kick.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

It was my understanding that aircraft operating VFR left right away to aircraft with less manueverability. Not as a FAR, but as a gentleman's agreement.

You wouldn't find a pilot of a 172 buzzing a balloon, or trying to fly through gliders.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tombuch 0]

Quote

I have always been told that parachutes have the right of way over a motorized vehicle.

Is this not true? If not, I have alot of azz's to kick.

Judy

That applies to aircraft only. Ideally, the most maneuerable will yield to the least maneuverable, and ideally that will include parachutes, but we are NOT included in the right of way regulations. Please see part 91.113 at http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr91_00.html. Also see 105.5 that includes the restriction to creating a hazard http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr105_00.html

Tom Buchanan
Safety and Training Advisor
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Hooknswoop 19]

"§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories --

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft; and

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over an airplane or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft."

Derek

[AggieDave 6]

What is the FAA's actual defination of a Glider?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lawrocket 3]

Let's use sense here, folks. Does a pilot of a small plane have a good chance of seeing skydivers in freefall, or even seeing them leave the jump plane? Or, does a skydiver have a better chance of seeing a plane before exit (and even after exit).

"That plane should have seen me" is a useless statement after you've fallen through the wing. Of course, the plane has a better chance of seeing pright canopies - after they are opened. But, I think it's up to me to make sure a pilot doesn't have to avoid my canopy.

Think about it - would you go IF you saw the plane was gonna be where you were going and trust the pilot to see you? Hell no! Edited to add: "Give yourself the information you want to have by searching for it."

I don't care if I have the right of way. I'll yield it. And if I get called to task to GO, I'll close the door and explain what I saw.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

What is the FAA's actual defination of a Glider?

For definitions please see FAR 1.1. The specific definitions are as follows:

"Glider" means a heavier-than air aircraft, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its lifting surfaces and whose free flight does not depend principally on an engine.

"Aircraft" means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

It sounds like you could call a parachute a glider, but then you would need to meet the pilot certification standards of part 61, and all the pilot requirements of part 91. Let's not try to wiggle a parachute into the glider category unless we all want to be licensed as pilots.

Tom Buchanan
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL, Glider)

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Hooknswoop 19]

Two different scenarios are being discussed,

1) Spotting or in free-fall and a airplane is flying over or near the DZ, and,

2) Parachutes are open over the DZ and an aircraft is approaching the airspace over the DZ which is filled with parachutes.

In 1, the aircraft has no way to see and avoid skydivers in free-fall, it is up to the skydivers to see the aircraft and not exit if an aircraft may present a hazard. This is helped by the big sky theory and communications with ATC by both the jump ship and other aircraft. The problem is the sky is getting more and more crowded and in a lot of areas, an aircraft needs neither to be in contact with ATC nor even have a transponder so that ATC can see the aircraft's location and, if equipped, altitude, w/o primary radar.

For 2, a canopy is going to have a hard time getting out of the way of an aircraft and the canopy would have the right of way, the same as an aircraft approaching a hot-air balloon or glider. I know of a case where a Piper Cub taking off clipped a Tandem that was landing. There is no way it was the Tandem’s fault, for even if the Tandem sees the Cub approaching, he can’t get out of the way.

The day a skydiver hit a jet with a Senator on board and takes it down, skydiving in this country as we know it will be gone.

The day a jet with a Senator on board hit a skydiver under canopy………I dunno.

Derek

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

What is the FAA's actual defination of a Glider?

Parachutists and skydivers are not aircraft. They are covered in a different section of the FARs (Part 105).\

JK - PP ASEL, GLIDER.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skylord 1]

Here's my two cents worth, from both sides of the radar scope. It shocks me to be out at Elsinore during their 60 way, and see an airplane fly by, low just minutes after everyone landed. I've also issued traffic (primary only, "type and altitude unknown") when I got the two minutes to jump call from the pilot. The primary was still underneath the jump plane, and when I told the pilot I'd advise him when clear, he said he was done, and going back to the airport. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?? Why even talk to me, then?

Anyway, there is no requirement for us to separate aircraft from active DZs, save one instance. The controllers who trained me, though, taught it as a requirement. So if you talk to me as a pilot, you get a vector away from silk (nylon, or whatever). That's exactly the way I put it, too. "November 3 lima bravo, turn left heading one three zero, vector away from silk." The inevitable comeback is, "What was that again?" And then I tell them they were flying into a skydiving drop zone. They are shocked, although the symbol has been right there on the last 30 years worth of sectionals.

Anyway, the green light is a guide, look as best you can for traffic, and now that I'm almost self aware in freefall, I sometimes look around for airplanes. Kind of academic, really, but at least I have a better chance then if I never saw it coming. I'm a pilot and AOPA member, too. If I jumped out of an airplane and landed on 25 Right at LAX, I'm in big trouble. Maybe there should be some tightening of the FARs regarding dropzones, and controller requirements if a pilot flies through an active DZ......

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[dkf1979 0]

From what it describes here. Would skydivers be restricted under this?
http://www.joink.com/homes/users/reverly/part_103.htm

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[Adriandavies 0]

The only people who fly regularly at my DZ are from the DZ, and although I don't know what the exact status of the airspace I think in practice it is shut to other users unless they are booked in. That however doesn't stop people over flying it by mistake. If the DZO get their registration details a complaint is filed.

[kallend 2,027]

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The only people who fly regularly at my DZ are from the DZ, and although I don't know what the exact status of the airspace I think in practice it is shut to other users unless they are booked in. That however doesn't stop people over flying it by mistake. If the DZO get their registration details a complaint is filed.

You are in the UK, where airspace over pretty much all airports, large and small, is controlled. In the USA the majority of small and medium sized airports are uncontrolled, which means no permission is required to overfly. In order to be controlled, the airport must have an operating control tower, which may be a temporary facility as at WFFC.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pilotdave 0]

A parachute is a parachute, not an aircraft, ultalight, balloon, or anything else.

When a plane has a close call with skydivers, a lot of people can be blamed. It's not really all that different from when two planes have a close call. It is EVERYONE'S responsibility to see and avoid traffic when flying in VMC (visual meteorological conditions). Even IFR aircraft are responsible for traffic separation when they're not in instrument conditions.

It is very unlikely for a pilot to spot a skydiver in freefall. It's about as unlikely for a skydiver to spot a plane from freefall. Under canopy, everything is pretty equalized. Skydivers have better visibility than just about any aircraft though.

It is by no means illegal for a plane to fly over a dropzone. It's not smart, and I bet the pilot could be charged with reckless flying in some cases. But dropzones are not restricted airspace in any way shape or form. They are labeled on charts, and skydiving operations are announced on local frequencies. But there is no rule saying pilots need to carry charts or use radios (depending on the airspace).

In my opinion, a pilot is MORE responsible than a skydiver or jump pilot in a case like this. But he is by no means 100% responsible. We're all sharing the same airspace, and the same responsibility to stay away from each other.

When a freefalling skydiver hit a plane in massachusetts 8 or 9 years ago, the skydiver sued air traffic control, and won. Just another case of a stupid jury that doesn't understand the system.

Dave

[Adriandavies 0]

It goes to show that even in controlled airpsace you can still have problems. I also guess it has to be controlled tightly because it is a small and over crowded little island.