AFF student on Anti depresants?

[Tonto 1]

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Then you just answered your own question.

Yes. But I'm not qualified to answer that question.

I'd like to carry on with him, but,

I'm not a doctor or a pharmasist. I'm an AFF instructor. If the doctor who prescribed the meds feels there's no problem, he'll be on the 1st load. If he feels there is a problem, he won't.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[steve1 5]

Ron,
There's no reason to get so fired up over this. Some of your statements are definitely getting others riled up, including myself.

Those people who are taking or have taken anti-depressants have a some insight on this problem. Those who have suffered from depression also have a lot of knowlege in this area. All they are trying to do is educate others on what depression is all about. They can see that there are things that many do no understand about this subject. Some of your statements reflect this.

Just like many of us don't understand all that is involved to being an instructor because many of us have never been there. So it's good to hear that side of things from an instructor. Some of us don't understand all the legal issues, so it's good to hear that from a lawyer.

It's just like a Wuffo coming up to you and saying I see you have way over 3000 jumps. You must surely have a death wish, and you surely must have suicidal tendencies. Why else would anyone make that many jumps out of a perfectly good airplane? And I don't want to hear your opinion on this. Of course I don't believe that, because I'm a jumper too and I look up to anyone who has that many jumps. But wouldn't that tick you off if you heard that.

So when I hear we need to raise a red flag whenever a person on anti-depressants wants to make a jump it really pisses me off. Maybe this isn't what you said, but this is my interpretation of things.

So in other words, this doesn't have to be a mud slinging event. Maybe we need to all settle down and listen with an open mind to what the other has to say.....Steve1

[WrongWay 0]

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Then you just answered your own question.

Yes. But I'm not qualified to answer that question.

I'd like to carry on with him, but,

I'm not a doctor or a pharmasist. I'm an AFF instructor. If the doctor who prescribed the meds feels there's no problem, he'll be on the 1st load. If he feels there is a problem, he won't.

t

That's a very safe and responsible call to make.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Ron 10]

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There's no reason to get so fired up over this. Some of your statements are definitely getting others riled up, including myself.

Cause you let them get you riled up.

The simple fact is my take on this is just like any other medical condition...Get cleared to jump before you jump.

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Those people who are taking or have taken anti-depressants have a some insight on this problem. Those who have suffered from depression also have a lot of knowlege in this area. All they are trying to do is educate others on what depression is all about. They can see that there are things that many do no understand about this subject. Some of your statements reflect this.

And Doctor know more than me, you, them on the subject. Me saying they are safe to skydive on Zoloft or depressed is uneducated at best, and possibly criminaly negligent. You or their opinions are also not as good as a Dr's. Simple fact is people jump when they are injured or sick and know damn good and well they should not. Only a DOCTOR can make the call as to if the person is mentally healthy enough or if the meds could pose a problem.

In this case...As with ANY medical condition the answer to the question of "Can I jump on "X" med or with "X" condition?" My answer is ALWAYS "Check with your Doctor".

How hard is that to grasp? You and I don't know enough to make that call...Only your Doctor can. Any responsable Instructor would make a student on ANY medication, or ANY medical condition that could cause problems to get a release from their Doctor...It really is that simple, and that really is my only issue.

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So when I hear we need to raise a red flag whenever a person on anti-depressants wants to make a jump it really pisses me off. Maybe this isn't what you said, but this is my interpretation of things.

Whats wrong with this raising a red flag? Bring up the concern, and if the person has been cleared to jump by his Doc...Then there is no issue...If he can't get cleared by his doc, then his doc knows better than you, I, them, and a thousand others who are not Doctors.

Look I'm done with this...It's clear some people are taking this as a personal attack on them...(Michele comes to mind).

Fact is if you are a licensed jumper. It's none of my buisness what you are taking..But as an instructor, if you are my student it IS my concern.

And I treat Depression just as I would treat any other illness...Lets compare to Diabeties which I know all about. (I'm a type II). If a student came to me and said "I am diabetic/clinicly depressed and I have to take meds". I would ask for a Dr's note before I take them up. I would not try to play Dr. and diagnose the problem, and possible issues...I would let a DOCTOR do that.

Like I said I'm done here...It is a medical condition that only a Doctor can make the call on if it is safe to jump while experiencing, or under medication for.

Students don't know enough of skydiving to say its OK, and Instructors don't know enough about depression and medications to say it's OK...Only a Dr. can make that call.

Whats wrong with making them make that call? Answer: Some are afraid that their Doctor would not clear them, so they would rather not ask.

Has your doc cleared you? I will not relpy to it, but I would like to know...

Anyone else want to bitch, bicker, complain, send death threats...ect send it to PM.

I'm done. By now I would hope everyone knows my stand and why.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 643]

On a side note, I also went through a depression last year, and I kept jumping the whole time. It was a bad depression, but as opposed to the "he's jumping so he can off himself" theory, jumping was what kept me happy/sane. Keep that in mind.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed.

I am tired of the knee-jerk assumption that depression is automatically connected to suicide.

For many years I suffered depression, low self esteem, chronic insomnia, couldn't think of a reason to continue breathing, etc.
Skydiving and running were the only things that kept me close to sane/prevented me from punching out my asshole boss.
I eventually quit that job and the alcohol related to it, but have never had the courage to ask a doctor to give me medication to control my long-term depression. Part of that fear is a fear that I will lose my pilot medical if Transport Canada ever found out about me taking mood-altering medication.

There are far more un-diagnosed mental illnesses on DZs than we are willing to admit. What about all those border-line alcoholics who are hiding from their demons behind bottles?

So who is worse: a depressed person who is in denial or someone who asked for help and is on the up swing?

[rsein 0]

HI, I am a physician (although not a psychiatrist) I have dealt with patients with Mayor Depressive Disorder and Dysthimic Disorder.

There are various drugs used to treat these disorders including selective serotonine reoptake inhibitors (SSRIs), tricyclic antidipressants (TCAs), monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) and electroconvulsive therapy (ECT)

I did not have time to read the hole tread so I apologize if someone has already said what I'm about to say.

There are many "levels" of depression, many treatments and different people do not react the same way to the same drugs.

My recommendation is the following:

Follow the USPA "rules"
----Quote from a previous post--------------------

Section 2-1: Basic Safety Requirements
C. Medical requirements [NW]

1. All persons engaging in skydiving must:

a. Carry a valid Class 1, 2, or 3 Federal Aviation Administration Medical Certificate; or

b. Carry a certificate of physical fitness for skydiving from a registered physician; or

c. Have completed the USPA recommended medical statement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this is what the USPA requires, get it and keep it on a file!

It is not your call to determine if he/her may jump. You may loose your license, have the DZ shut down and be liable if something were to happen to this student and a full investigation were to reveal his medical condition.

I am not saying don't let him/her jump; I'm saying get clearance first, don't risk it!!!


Hope this helps, good luck!

HISPA #5

[tkhayes 348]

simple question - can they pass an FAA Class III medical? If not, then they would not be allowed to fly an airplane, even as a student pilot. Therefore I would think they should not be in freefall and 'flying' a parachute.

USPA's requirements are pretty vague, several locations in USPA and/or federal regs point to the Class III as a minimum, and since it is the only 'official' medical statement there really is, I send my students to pass one of those when in doubt.

It is a good meter of their ability and would certainly help cover you in the event of an incident.
TK

[SkyAnt 0]

I know plenty of us that are taking "skydiving" instead of meds.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

[argon 0]

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simple question - can they pass an FAA Class III medical? If not, then they would not be allowed to fly an airplane, even as a student pilot. Therefore I would think they should not be in freefall and 'flying' a parachute.

USPA's requirements are pretty vague, several locations in USPA and/or federal regs point to the Class III as a minimum, and since it is the only 'official' medical statement there really is, I send my students to pass one of those when in doubt.

It is a good meter of their ability and would certainly help cover you in the event of an incident.
TK

You don't need a medical to fly an airplane as a student pilot-you need a 3rd class medical to SOLO an airplane.You don't need a medical to fly as pilot in command of a GLIDER. Next,its all disclosure,do you honestly think people tell the truth ALL the time.Had the student not revealed his "secret" who would have known-but now the cats out of the bag and without medical clearance the dz is open to alot of problems if an incident occurs. The USPA waiver is no better than an FAA medical from the standpoint that if an applicant choses not to reveal the true facts there is nothing that can be done. Its amazing how the FAA has granted waivers for alot of disabilities. SSRI drugs are one of those things they WILL not budge on. I know alot of Class 1 medical carrying ATP's that are living miserably just to keep their medical.My guess is their isn't a doctor to be found to medically clear a jumper taking any psychoactive drug.

***********
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget: Mother Earth is waiting for you--there is a debt you have to pay...... POPS #9329 Commercial Pilot,Instrument MEL

[AndyMan 7]

If we are going to exlude people who show any signs of depression from jumping, I'm fairly certain we'd lose around 75% of skydivers.

If we are going to exclude people who are currently medicated for depression from jumping, I suspect we'd lose close to %25.

I've noticed that in the skydiving community, the rate of depression FAR exceeds the non-jumper rate. Even here on dz.com, the subject of depression comes up frequently. I know of at least 10 dz.com members who are under treatment for depression, and that number grows to 20 when I think of people who have been at one time. I don't know that many dz.com members, either.

If you look at the science behind depression, this isn't terribly surprising. One of the big groups of antidepressants are called monoamine oxidase inhibitors, or MAOIs. As the name suggests, these drugs inhibit the production of monoamine oxidase (MAO), a nurochemical that converts the neurotransmitters adrenaline, nor-adrenaline, and serotonin into inactive molecules. More info on MAO and MAOI's here

Conincidentally, risk takers such as skydivers (and entrepreneurs, and many serial killers), often show depleted levels of MAO.

"Adrenalin addicts", like skydivers and other extreme sports participants, show many signs associated with depression. This is not terribly surprisingly given the clear scientific connection between Adrenalin, Serotonin, MAO, and the class of anti-depressants known as MAOIs.

Skydiving, and indeed anything that produces adrenalyn, is a natural antidepressant. I'm pretty sure this is exactly why it seems to attract so many people showing signs of depression.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I have to agree with AndyMan here. I have taken students skydiving who were at risk to show them there is more to life. Skydiving was one of the greatest things I have done and whenever I feel depressed about things, jumping out of airplanes with my friends always cheers me up.

One student comes to mind. He was going to check into a rehab and was having bouts of depression. He was 19 years old and his mom brought him out to learn to skydive since he had always wanted to. Her plan was to get him involved in things that would make him realize life is worth living for. He decided to start tandem and come back for AFF when he was done with his rehab.

I think it is ridiculous to turn someone away from the sport simply because they are on anti-depressants. I don't know a single drop zone who doesn't have at least one question regarding health/drugs/medical issues. I have had to sign a waiver at every DZ stating there are no health or any other problems which would inhibit me to skydive.

Our job as instructors is to make sure our students stay safe. If we get the feeling that someone is unsafe (for a good reason) and being on antidepressants is not one in my opinion, then that is a different story. If there is some obvious problem, no I don't think it is a wise decision to take them up.

After I had my daughter I breastfed for 18 months and she was an on demand every 3 hour eater. I had MAJOR sleep deprivation for that long and my body's seratonin levels were way off. When I went to the doc, feeling all depressed he explained why to me and told me that my body would not recoup by itself without meds. I went on Zoloft for about 4-5 months until my seratonin levels were back to normal and I was back to feeling normal. Any time I had a chance or a break I skydived and NO, antidepressants did not make me a freak in the sky. They are there to help rebalance your body's chemistry, not make things worse.

Now if I had a student of mine tell me that they were suicidal and were looking for new and creative ways to die, I would not take them skydiving because at that point I would feel like I need to step in. Otherwise, they signed the waiver attesting to the fact that they are GOOD TO GO.

Ron, you have some good points but you are not a doctor and I think your attitude is borderline discriminatory. It is our job to make sure our students are safe to skydive. They instill trust in us as instructors and we instill trust in them to be honest. If they are not honest with us, they signed a waiver which releases us from that liability. That is it.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Ron 10]

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Ron, you have some good points but you are not a doctor and I think your attitude is borderline discriminatory

You are also not a Dr. And we have had one Dr. already check in with his thoughts.

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HI, I am a physician (although not a psychiatrist) I have dealt with patients with Mayor Depressive Disorder and Dysthimic Disorder.

There are various drugs used to treat these disorders including selective serotonine reoptake inhibitors (SSRIs), tricyclic antidipressants (TCAs), monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) and electroconvulsive therapy (ECT)

I did not have time to read the hole tread so I apologize if someone has already said what I'm about to say.

There are many "levels" of depression, many treatments and different people do not react the same way to the same drugs.

Ron here: So while you might have been fine, you can't make the call that the next guy will be fine. He might be MORE depressed or the medication may not work as well for him. YOU or I can't make that call...We don't know enough, only a Doctor will know.

My recommendation is the following:

Follow the USPA "rules"
----Quote from a previous post--------------------

Section 2-1: Basic Safety Requirements
C. Medical requirements [NW]

1. All persons engaging in skydiving must:

a. Carry a valid Class 1, 2, or 3 Federal Aviation Administration Medical Certificate; or

b. Carry a certificate of physical fitness for skydiving from a registered physician; or

c. Have completed the USPA recommended medical statement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this is what the USPA requires, get it and keep it on a file!

It is not your call to determine if he/her may jump. You may loose your license, have the DZ shut down and be liable if something were to happen to this student and a full investigation were to reveal his medical condition.

I am not saying don't let him/her jump; I'm saying get clearance first, don't risk it!!!

A DOCTOR gives you the same advice I give, but I'm discriminatory?

I find it funny that people want depression to be treated like any other disease, but when I treat it like any other medical condition I'm discriminatory.

I think that derpression IS a medical condition...That is WHY I treat it just like any other medical condition and would ask for a clearance from a Doctor.

I got cleared to jump with my Diabeties....Why would you not get cleared to jump with a very powerful disease that has led people to such extremes as to end their own life?

Did you look at the link I sent where people killed themselves in this sport?

I have seen the crater left by one of those listed...I have seen the damaged done not only by his body hitting the gound, but also the damage done to those that saw it.

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It is our job to make sure our students are safe to skydive.

And does not making sure they are safe to skydive also include taking into account any medical conditions that might limit or even ban a person?

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They instill trust in us as instructors and we instill trust in them to be honest.

And yet I bet you can show me plenty of people that have lied. Its about saftey, and saftey of the sport.

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If they are not honest with us, they signed a waiver which releases us from that liability. That is it.

The waiver does little to protect the Instructor in the real world...

It seems like everyone here takes this to heart...I have all these people who have been on or are on some form of medication to combat a disease claiming I am trying to "hold them back"...

Nope, I am quite simply treating them as I would ANY person that has a medical condition.

1. The FAA will not allow a pilot to fly on SSRI's or almost any other anti-depression medication..There is a reason.

2. We have a Dr. telling us to make them get cleared first.

3. We have a DZM saying that they should get cleared first.

Depression is a SERIOUS problem...Bad enough that some people KILL themselves over it....

Skydiving is a dangerous, high speed environment...If the student is not 100% mentally able to handle life and death choices in a matter of seconds. they should not be jumping.

If this is a medical condition (Which I think most cases are) and it requires drugs (Which all drugs have side effects some known others not known and drugs effect each person differently). Why not get cleared by a Doctor before jumping?


I really am done here...you want to continue this with me...Reread all my posts on this, and then if you still have questions or comments directed at me...send a PM.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Dude,

For one thing, relax, breathe and take a deep breath. You seem to get way riled up over your posts and the posts of others and if you haven't noticed even though I wrote (IN MY OPINION) which I am entitled to that I think you have decent points, your manner of presenting them is bothersome.

For one, Tonto was not asking about depression, he was asking about anti-depressants.

For another, the doctor mentions having students fill out a USPA medical statement. I believe many DZs have students do this as part of the waiver. Another point, it is not our responsibility to know everything about a student medically nor is it our business unless it affects their ability to skydive. I stated that I was once on anti-depressants for about 4-5 months and have known many skydivers to be on anti-depressants and it has not affected their performance. Half of the time, I just jump with the students, manifest at the DZ usually takes care of the medical waivers, etc. I will generally ask questions like, are you feeling ready, or how are you feeling today. If I am teaching the FJC I gi into greater detail about their medical history and injuries. I will ask if they are taking any medications. Most of them say no. If they are lying, it is not my responsibility to go and look through their medical files to see if they are taking anti-depressants.

As I said earlier, you raised some good points which will make me look at this situation in a different light, however your manner again in representing these points rubs me the very wrong way

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[AndyMan 7]

The bigger issue here is that there's an underlieing expectation that the instructor or staff is expected to somehow diagnose or determine the extent of the depression, something they're entirely ill-equiped to do.

That's up to the patient and doctor, IMHO.

Every DZ should have the USPA medical statement statment on the waiver. The FAA class-3 medical does prohibit being PIC while on antidepressants, but this is precisely why the USPA recoments DZ's offer the medical statement as an alternative. The USPA acknowledges the class-3 is too strict for most skydiving.

There is no reason to think that someone on anti-depressants are risks to themselves, or anyone else. The numbers just don't add up. Tens of millions of american are on anti-depressants, yet only a few thousand commit suicide every year.

Being on anti-depressants does affect the probability of suicide, the effect is miniscule and only shows up in statistics.

Jennifer: Ron is much easier to take if you simply ignore him. My enjoyment of dz.com increased 5-fold once I started blocking him out.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Michele 1]

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Jennifer: Ron is much easier to take if you simply ignore him. My enjoyment of dz.com increased 5-fold once I started blocking him out.

LOL, that was funny.

Thanks!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Off topic, but I will say that Ron Hill, while argumentative, adds an awful lot of signal to these sometimes noise-saturated topical forums. He is a fantastic skydiver and was a good instructor up in NC when he was in the service. But, alas, this isn't a "Ron bashing" thread, is it? Let's not let it turn into one.

Back to the topic at hand: I have trained more than a couple of students who truthfully filled out their waivers and stated that they were on anti-depressants. Only one was "sketchy" in my opinion and that student ended up running off on me before he made his recurrency jump (he was on anti-psychotic medication). I consider myself a very-good judge of competency. If I am training someone in a FJC and they are simply not getting it, then I am not about to drag that person up in a plane and endanger them or myself just for $30. If they cannot parrot back the dive flow to me to my satisfaction or retain enough of my class to pass the oral exam, then they are not skydiving. Just last year I had to tell one student who had sat through my entire seven hour FJC with seven of his classmates that he was not going to be able to jump. I didn't feel bad at all because this kid was DUMB. I swear I thought it was a joke because this kid didn't know his ass from a whole in the ground.

Chuck

[steve1 5]

Ron,
Sorry if I said anything I shouldn't have. I know little or nothing about being an instructor. Nor do I know much about the legal aspects of running a drop zone. You made many valid points, and maybe I need to listen instead of getting my knickers in such a knot. (I love that kind of talk)....Steve1

[SkydivingNurse 0]

I don't know that I would agree that skydivers are more prone to depression. There are some studies out there that indicate that people who thrive on the adrenaline have altered numbers of dopamine receptors in their brains. This won't make you depressed, but you will need a higher level of stimulation to feel the excitement. I'll try to find a link to post about it sometime.

[benny 0]

Maybe not depression but check out what this article has to say about High Sensation Seekers and their low threshold for boredom. Maybe the depression that some skydivers feel is really just overwhelming boredom.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[AdD 1]

Hey, if the guy pulled there's no problem, it's the ones who switch off their aad's and go head down you've gotta worry about.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[darrenspooner 0]

Hi

Thought I’d do this personally as well as posting on the forum. I’m a clinical psychologist and work with adults with mental health problems, including depression and anxiety. Many many people take antidepressants these days. Its not necessarily a great cause for concern. The fact that your student told you about this is a positive aspect. There are 4 main types of antidepressants – tricyclics (older, sometimes sedative drugs), SSRIs (newer, non-sedating, no obvious side effects that would impair judgement or alertness), MAOIs (mono-amine oxidase inhibitors, just in case you are interested, seldom used these days) and atypical antidepressants (often used when other drugs fail, or for a chronic problem). Antidepressants are also used for the treatment of other psychiatric conditions such as anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, eating disorders, chronic fatigue syndrome and so on. With regard to suicidality or fitness to jump, I’d suggest getting your student to get a doctors note. Not everyone that gets depressed is suicidal, and lots of people retain the ability to function perfectly. Additionally, some people are prescribed antidepressants even though they are not depressed or significantly ill. I’d suggest you just get the all clear from the student’s doctor, and perhaps than the student for being brave enough to be honest with you.
***die with yer boots on