Isn't it time for a serious talk about low turns??

[benny 0]

I know I'm new and I know that skydiving isn't safe (I was involved in a previous thread on the stats), but I think it might be ok to give elfanie a little bit of a break. She does seem to understand that there is risk involved, however, as she points out, there's risk in everything. What makes skydiving unsafe, I think, is the speed. Driving your car at 120 mph is unsafe. Anything at that speed is unsafe... If you hit something at speeds that great, odds are, you'll die. I think race car drivers will tell you that their sport is unsafe. The mistake is for any of us to think that anything is safe, weather driving to the store or jumping out of an airplane, it's not safe, you just might die or get maimed in the process. So, plan like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[elfanie 0]

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I don't keep count, and I don't plan on doing it now....Its a lot, and I still feel each death.

My apologies. My intent was to learn...not to cause bad feelings.

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Besides we lost 24 people this year

How many have you lost yet?

Only one.

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How many jumps do you even have?
Any instructor ratings?

I only have 33 jumps in the sport thus far.
Of coruse no instructor ratings.

but these things..I'm not sure of the relevance. that doesn't change the risk of the sport or the statistics...

Having 8000 jumps and 23 years in the sport and having personally known 38 people who have died doesn't change the danger of the sport. it only changes the PERCIEVED danger and makes it more emotional.

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and again...this isn't to say that there aren't activities within basic skydiving that I think are unsafe...absolutely there are! BASE jumping...I consider unsafe. Swooping, CReW, skysurfing, etc...I don't consider those safe activities

And have you done any of these yet? So maybe you don't know whats safe and whats not?

Engaging in an activity doesn't change the risk level. I don't have to play russian roulette to determine that the risk of that activity is high enough for me to consider it unsafe.

And I'm not arguing that someone shouldn't feel skydiving is unsafe..
if 30 deaths in 3 million jumps is unsafe in their opinion, then that is their opinion. Absolutely! I'm just arguing that my definition isn't wrong, either..and that in my definition 30 deaths in 3 million jumps is safe.

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CreW for one is as safe as regular skydiving if done right (It is also the only other from this list that I know).so maybe you don't have enough experience to know what is "Safe" and what is not? I have over 2,500 swoops....How many do you have?

I have none...not a one.
But my experience doesn't change the risk level of the sport.
(eep..that sounds totally off from what I'm meaning..so let me try again)

My experience and training the sport of course can make me a safer individual skydiver...that's not what I mean.

what I do mean is that the safety of the sport is the safety of the sport in general...whether or not I have ever engaged in any activity, whether I have 1 year or 50 years in the sport, whether I have known nobody who has died or over 100 people who have died....
the safety of the sport is what it is. None of my personal experience changes the safety of the sport...the risk of skydiving is the same. (again, given the same activity)
I feel that it's safe.

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You don't know what you are talking about. Simple as that....Telling yourself that this is safe is not smart.

And you have the right to your opinion.

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Beginners try to convince themselves that this sport is safe.....People who have been in the sport for a while know its not.

And like I said in my very first post...it's all a matter of opinion. In your opinion, you feel this sport is not safe. In your definition of what is considered safe and unsafe, you consider it unsafe...and are strong enough in that conviction to say that those that have different definitions are wrong.

that's your right.

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You can do everything right and still die.

Im done with this and you. Continue to skydive with blinders on...If you make it to 10 years give me a call and tell me if you still think its safe.

*offers to shake your hand*
You have a deal.
she's right. I don't know what I'm going to be doing in 10 years....so she's absolutely right. But I can say that in 10 years I will either be jumping and still consider this sport safe as I do now (looking at statistics)...
or I will be dead...
or I will not be jumping and say, "Ya'll were right!! That's not a safe thing to do!"

So long as I feel it's an acceptable risk, I will jump. The day I feel it's no longer an acceptable risk, I won't jump. (I don't have a death wish..and if I feel something is likely to result in my death, I won't do it.)
I see a .00001% chance of any one given jump resulting in death (if there are 30 deaths per 3 million jumps) as a safe enough of an activity to enage in.

now...if someone jumps up and says that more people die than that...or that my numbers are wrong...then I'll thank them profusely for the added information and it might change my opinion...
but for now..I still feel that it's safe..and plan to jump tomorrow.

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Jimbo 0]

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Driving your car at 120 mph is unsafe. Anything at that speed is unsafe... If you hit something at speeds that great, odds are, you'll die.

How many skydivers died in the last five years because they hit something at 120MPH? Think about it.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[elfanie 0]

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The mistake is for any of us to think that anything is safe, weather driving to the store or jumping out of an airplane, it's not safe, you just might die or get maimed in the process. So, plan like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.

*hops up and down with glee*

Ok...yes yes...there's another way to put it...thank you!

I will absolutely agree to say, "NOTHING is "absolutely safe"...things are either "safe enough" or "too dangerous". I consider skydiving to be safe enough."

Absolutely will agree to that...yup yup yup...

nothing in life is without risk...we evaluate risk every moment of every day. My evaluation of skydiving is that it's one of the safe enough activities to engage in.

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[skydiver51 0]

COME ON PEOPLE!!! The subject of this thread is about low turns. Whether skydiving is safe or not is something that every skydiver needs to know but please put it in another thread. More than one subject in a thread clouds the discussion on the original subject and confuses people.

[Ron 10]

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I know I'm new and I know that skydiving isn't safe

So far so good.

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but I think it might be ok to give elfanie a little bit of a break. She does seem to understand that there is risk involved, however, as she points out, there's risk in everything.

No, she thinks its safe remember? But CreW, BASE, Swooping are all dangerous...Which she has never done.

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What makes skydiving unsafe, I think, is the speed.

No, what makes Skydiving unsafe is the fact that you put yourself into a situation that if you do nothing, or do the wrong thing YOU WILL DIE...Hell even if you do the right thing, YOU CAN DIE.

On every jump you have put yourself into a situation that if you don't react corectly....You are dead.

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Driving your car at 120 mph is unsafe

I did 140mph last night....No real conection here, but it was cool as hell, and had to tell someone.

But I have done 120 on a race track....It was not unsafe.

If you think skydiving is safe you are wrong. Its not. It can't be. It can be made safer, but it is not, and it will not be safe.

Funny thing is 10 years ago no one would think its safe.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[elfanie 0]

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COME ON PEOPLE!!! The subject of this thread is about low turns. Whether skydiving is safe or not is something that every skydiver needs to know but please put it in another thread. More than one subject in a thread clouds the discussion on the original subject and confuses people.

agreed...and my apologies.

So hypothetical question....why would a canopy control course, even a basic one...NOT be included in AFF training? ALL trainings? With emphasis as much as low altitude behavior as it is on high speed and low speed malfunctions?

And while I would be seriously against any regulations concerning swooping or other things related...why not have guidelines/suggestions in place for things such as that or wingloading or whatever..?

(serious question...as in, what is the downside to having these in place..? Is there a downside that I don't know of?)

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[mr2mk1g 10]

People are arguing over the definition of a subjective term. That in itself is almost a perfect oxymoron.

[PhreeZone 20]

How many people only do 1 jump per year? Look at it as a death per perticipent ratio. 30:30000 is about the current ratio for experienced jumpers. One out of every 1000 active jumpers in the US will die next year.
WFFC has 3000+ jumpers there for only one week and it almost always has a fatility happen there.

Education only works for those that are willing to listen. I have people on my DZ that their canopy skills are HORRIBLE and I avoid them like the plague under canopy, but since they have survived this long they think thier method and knowledge are more then enough and no one needs to educate them anymore. How do you reach those people?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

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I only have 33 jumps in the sport thus far.
Of coruse no instructor ratings.

but these things..I'm not sure of the relevance. that doesn't change the risk of the sport or the statistics...

The relevance is you don't know enough to know its not safe.

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you consider it unsafe

I never said it was UNSAFE...I said it is not safe.

Safe (adj)
1 Secure from danger, harm, or evil.
2 Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound.
3 Free from risk; sure: a safe bet.
4 Affording protection: a safe place.

By skydiving you put yourself in harms way...If you do nothing, or do the wrong thing you DIE. That is NOT #1,#2,#3, or #4

Its not safe.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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One out of every 1000 active jumpers in the US will die next year.

Wow a guy with experience gets it.

Think about it folks...One of us on here will be dead next year.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bigbearfng 18]

If USPA were to add on a requirement on CC for A license; there might be a little grumbling...(as in much higher CC requirements than it is currently).
But as with the recent increase to 25 jumps for A license-hey, it's for us newbies-yes it cost me more, but who was I to disagree with it!? And I really didn't mind anyway. So I could see that working.
But talk of requirements for folk that have been in this sport for a while....I just don't see how it could happen realistically.....which is probably why most folk say the S&TA should address most "problems".
Maybe increased CC requirements with each license, not just A? But again-for folk already with a current license.......

[skybytch 273]

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Maybe increased CC requirements with each license, not just A? But again-for folk already with a current license.......

Okay, I did the search. Here are a few threads that discuss canopy training and/or wingloading limits based on jump numbers and/or licensing.

Here's one.

Here's another.

And another.

One more.

Oh wait, here's another one.

Okay, this is the last one I'm gonna post.

Hope you've got a few hours on your hands...

[rendezvous 0]

I don't think there is anything that needs to be done to regulate low turns. It's talked about and there's enough information and advice available on it. Anything more would amount to policing the sport which is not a good idea. Personally, I think the sport is safe enough and the reason for that is the stress that we lay on educating ourselves about the sport. Since we are not policed we make an effort to think about our conduct in the sport. The day we have our conduct being dictated to us, we'll probably see the rise of a new breed of people who'll want to take shots at breaking the rules just to see what the fuss if all about. I think people are more responsible and mature in their approach and thinking if the choice to err remains with them. I do not think regulating will change the statistics to any better. It may just introduce a new type of category in the statistics. I think we should continue to stress on educating ourselves about the sport. May be we should get more people to discuss safety and low turns at DZ i.e have more safety day kind of discussions. I think that would be enough to get the point across to those who are smart enough to get it. For the few who are not, they'll inspite of all regulations still find some way of cutting their lives short so it doesnt really matter. As for bad publicity and bad press, well, there was a nice article in one of the Skydiving Magazine isssues on it. I think that's what needs to be done. We need to possitively engage and manage the press and Skydiving related PR at our DZs. PRESS is always looking to sell a good story. We can either help them author one or shy away from them and let them write one. As for ocassional cases where no matter what you do reporters still want to write crap, well, this is a risky and dangerous sport and they'll always manage to find material.

[skydiver51 0]

I'm not an instructor so I can't say the best way to educate. Maybe each DZ should set up an instructional course on CC that is for everyone. Maybe require it for those who want to swoop. Maybe require it be logged in the log book they attend the training. Maybe require it before they jump at their DZ. I feel EVERYONE needs to make a definite effort this year to get something in place, what ever that may be, because something is better than nothing and may save a life

[PhreeZone 20]

I can and have argued till I'm blue in the face with a jumper at my DZ that likes to toggle whip his hook turns. Its the worst possible way to do a turn but since he's done it that way for 600+ times with out injury he does'nt want to change what works for him. How do you stop someone like that from doing a turn?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,009]

>My defination of "safe" comes from the simple fact that I have
> buried more folks from skydiving than from car crashes, mosquito
> bites, bad food, gunshots...Hell all of these combined. Hell, from
> ALL other causes of Death that you can think of.

Bad example. A paramedic could use his far greater experience working with injured and dying people to prove that driving is a lot more dangerous than skydiving. But that wouldn't be right either - he is simply at more car crashes than you are, because it's his job. You're at skydiving fatalities more often than he is because you spend a lot of time at the DZ.

Skydiving is more dangerous than driving, but we can get a skewed perspective on the issue because we spend so much time watching it.

[skydiver51 0]

How do you tell the reporters to describe that a skydiver dies from a low trun (other than to miss an obstruction) under a good canopy that could have put him/her on the ground safely, to where people won't look at our sport with a questionable frame of mind???

[billvon 3,009]

>So hypothetical question....why would a canopy control course, even
> a basic one...NOT be included in AFF training?

A very basic one is included, appropriate for jumpers jumping low performance student parachutes. There is some training later in the ISP (if implemented at that DZ) that covers braked turns. But most injuries aren't happening under student canopies, they are happening later, under higher performance canopies. Different skills are required to fly them safely.

>And while I would be seriously against any regulations concerning
> swooping or other things related...why not have
> guidelines/suggestions in place for things such as that or
> wingloading or whatever..?

We have them. We have Brian Germain's loading recommendations, Derek's canopy control course proposal, several canopy courses . . . the problem is that pretty much every single skydiver out there figures they are the exception who, due to his superior canopy skills, does not need to heed the guidelines.

[Ron 10]

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Bad example. A paramedic could use his far greater experience working with injured and dying people to prove that driving is a lot more dangerous than skydiving. But that wouldn't be right either - he is simply at more car crashes than you are, because it's his job. You're at skydiving fatalities more often than he is because you spend a lot of time at the DZ.

Maybe, but I am comparing the number of deaths that I have seen from one thing, and comparing it to the rest of my life.

A limited number of folks that I know that skydive that have died due to one cause to the larger number of folks that I know that have died period (That also includes jumpers that died NON skydiving deaths).

And I have had more people I know die from skydiving than all other things combined.

Lets say I know only two hundred people. 100 that jump, 100 that don't. And I have had 5 friends die (I don't know how many to be honest, and Im not going to count)...only one was not skydiving related. Now to be honest I know a hell of a lot more non skydivers than skydivers....Why is it 4/5 of the deaths of my friends were skydiving related if I know more non skydivers than skydivers?

Answer...Skydiving is a high risk sport...regular life is not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Take a look at the whole Wingload BSR crap we did.

The USPA told us to take a hike.

Several of us tried...No one cared

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[VectorBoy 0]

Maybe, but I am comparing the number of deaths that I have seen from one thing, and comparing it to the rest of my life.

And I have had more people I know die from skydiving than all other things combined.

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You're still young Ron, soon you may find more cancer and disease reaping on your friends of similar age than skydiving. My wife commented the other day, she attended more funerals than weddings this last year. Having just come from the funeral of yet another cancer victim. I have lost more friends to other non skydiving causes than I know of people that mearly suffer femur or pelvis fractures and are on crutches in a few weeks.

Plus just think of all the lurkers on this site that are preparing a noose as we post yet another
"something has got to be done about low turns" post.

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[skydiver51 0]

That's very sad when this year has already started out with a low turn death. (not that this skydiver wasn't experienced or wasn't educated in low turns) The sport needs something to lower the number of deaths that will happen this year. People have stated we don't need to police the sport in this issue or we don't need to force some kind of controls. If educating everyone isn't helping then required regulation will be the next step. Continued deaths without attempts to control the cause will eliminate the sport all together.

[Ron 10]

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If educating everyone isn't helping then required regulation will be the next step.

Education seems to be working some...But education takes time, and not everyone will listen.

Several DZ's already have regulations...I suspect more will.

VectorBoy...you are right...I am young, and I know I will start to lose more friends over more things...But most of my friends are around my age, and they are dying from skydiving, not driving, eating raw cookie dough...ect.

And Hell, Im getting ready to tie a knot if this BSR shit storm starts again...Its clear the USPA does not give a rats ass about it. And its clear that the 100 jump wonders know it all already and will not listen. So why waste my breath?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Sheenster303 0]

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So why waste my breath?

You're not wasting your breath.......you're typing remember?

I'm so funny I crack my head open!

P.M.S. #102