uncontrollable spin

[dkf1979 0]

Would a delta position cure an uncontrollable spin?

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[PhreeZone 20]

You would just track in a circle. There is the possibility that moving body position is enough to fix what was wrong though.

You need to figure out whats causeing the spin to truely cure it. It might be a droped knee, a dropped elbow, a leg sticking out or a combo of a few things. Toe taps, arm checks and pointing the toes tends to be able to fix all the major inputs. If there is still a spin or turn it might take video to find it. Unfortunatually untill you get to 15 second delays ot longer its hard to get usable video on static line jumps.

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And tomorrow is a mystery

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[dkf1979 0]

I haven't experienced one. But i've seen video's and read stories. Would be a really helpless feeling. I was just curious if a delta position would help.

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[dnewcomer 0]

Dan, this question comes up all the time in various DZ forums and you'll get as many opinions as there are well-intentioned JM's, AFF instructors, and "experts." None of the usual advice helped me when I had this problem at about jump #10. It is difficult for someone with 1,000-5,000 (or more) jumps to relate to this problem because stability for them while flat-flying is as natural as breathing for you. In very inexperienced skydivers (under 10-20 jumps), flat spins can be so rapid and violent that the jumper may lose consciousness -- the high centrifugal force caused by the spin disturbs normal body blood flow. This may be more common in static line students because they don't usually jump closely with others on their first few skydives.
A few suggestions you'll hear: (1) go into a track and the spin will stop; (2) hit your heels or feet together to be sure a knee is not down; (3) keep your arms where you can see them -- are they symmetrical? (4) breath slowly, relax and arch more; (5) have someone watch or video you in a spin to see what is happening. There is certainly merit to all of these, but if you're a beginning jumper, it is almost impossible to go into a track or see where your body parts are while in a violent spin (3 or 4 revs per second). Moreover, it will be difficult for others, even on a slo-mo video, to see what is happening. (Been there, done that.) In addition when you're in the spin, it has been my experience your body has a tendency (without your awareness) to flex sideways toward the spin which aggravates it.
I consider myself a low time jumper, but I can tell you what worked for one person from personal experience: pull your arms and legs in for one or two seconds, then open up again and assume a relaxed arch. I believe the main reason this works is because you are totally resetting your body parts and repositioning whatever it was that caused the spin. It has been suggested to me that this could increase the spin rate because of "preservation of angular momentum." (Think of an ice skater in a scratch spin pulling in his arms.) In actuality, I know that doesn't happen --- but I'm not sure why. The possible explanation may be that you don't stay tucked for long enough time for that effect occur, and when you restore the normal "flat-fly" box position, the wind resistance stops your turning.
Hope this info is helpful. In a very short time you'll look back on this problem and wonder how it happened at all.
Bl. sk. Dave

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

It is difficult for someone with 1,000-5,000 (or more) jumps to relate to this problem because stability for them while flat-flying is as natural as breathing for you.

After seeing some of my 1200+ past AFF students in this type of spin, I can tell you the delta position will not help in this case.
Try to listen to an AFF Instructor, and not someone that is not trained to give the proper instruction as to how to stop a spin.
It will help you understand better if you are able to accually see in person the correct body position, and the correct way to stop a spin.
You may want to visualize and practice it on a horizontal trainer if you have one at your DZ also.

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[footbagman 0]

Get yourself on video. It will help see what you are doing wrong. When I got back into the sport I was backsliding alot, When I saw the video I was able to see what I was doing wrong & corrected it. Blue Skies.

Life's a Beach, Not a Mountain.

[chuteless 1]

see my posting on "How do you turn with your feet in freefall"

A video would be a good idea.

I had more than my share of flat spins when I started...I just kept working at it, and made myself aware where my feet and hands/arms were.

Bill Cole

[chuteless 1]

keep in mind, it is important NOT to deploy your chute while in a spin, or you'll have a line twist from bottom to the top of your lines, and you'll likely have to cutaway. It also could prevent the inflation of the canopy as well as the line twist.

Pay attention to your body position....if flying stable, try a slow turn by dropping one arm, or bending one leg, and after a few seconds, return to the stable position and the spin will stop.

Eventually you'll do turns without even thinking about it, it becomes a natural action/reaction and you dont even think about what to do...you are in total control.


Of course Remster, its better to pull in a spin than bounce....but if one can learn what makes one spin, they can understand the aerodynamics of turns. I am only suggesting that if one deploys in a spin, no matter how fast or slow, they can expect some serious twists, and will likely end up with a cutaway.

I agree, pull/deploy at altitude, and study your problem with the idea of correcting it.

Bill Cole
Bill Cole

[Remster 30]

Quote

kkep in mind, it is important NOT to deploy your chute while in a spin, or you'll have a line twist fronm bottom to the top of your lines, and you'll likely have to cutaway.

Please please please.....

Pull
Pull at the right altitude
Pull stable


In order of importance. So if you have to pull in a spin, please do. Its better form then bouncing.

Remster

[skr 1]

> Would a delta position cure an uncontrollable spin?

Deltaing out of a spin was once a standard
technique. Maybe it's emphasized less now
because AFF instructors are reluctant to have
their students deltaing away from them.

A spin usually comes from some asymmetry
of body position plus stiffness. The legs are
often the culprit and toe taps are a standard
thing to try.

The swan dive / delta is a very stable position
and going into it takes you out of whatever
position you were in that was causing the
spin.

Relaxing would work too but just jumping out
is a tense thing to do and if something is going
wrong people usually get even more tense.

So all these things are something you can try
if a spin starts, but a cure is more like doing
something other than whatever is causing the
spin in the first place.

You may figure out an actual cause or you may
just move on from it as you start to feel more at
home in the air with more jumps.

Remember that at some point you have to pull
even if you are in a spin.

Skr

[peek 21]

dfk1979:
Would a delta position cure an uncontrollable spin?

Skratch:
Deltaing out of a spin was once a standard
technique. Maybe it's emphasized less now
because AFF instructors are reluctant to have
their students deltaing away from them.

Gary:
Believe it or not, I've seen it work! Worked really well too.

Disclaimer: No one told this student to try this. It is something he picked up on his own from reading more about skydiving than actually skydiving (and consulting his instructors.)

I would think that few instructors now would suggest this to a student, althought like Skratch said, it used to be commonly recommended.

My thoughts are that it works/worked mainly because the student will be concentrating on the delta position and not concentrating on stopping the spin (which often makes it worse.)