Pilots.....Runway lenghths????

[freeflir29 0]

So I have this crazy idea of building my own airport. My questions.............


#1. How long of a runway do I need to accomadate the full range of skydiving planes? Otter, Casa, King Air, DC-3, and B-727?


#2. What footwork is required with the FAA to put in an airstrip. (Other than just a NOTAM for skydiving.)



Things I know already.........Take off roll for a Casa is listed on the performance plate as 1388Ft. Distance to clear 50Ft is 1886Ft. Landing distance from 50Ft is 1704. So........is a 3000Ft runway doable for most skydiving aircraft? Of course....the longer the better but I'm looking for mins. Any help you knowledgeable folks out there can give is appreciated.

[freeflir29 0]

Sorry........can one of you Greenies move this to General? I'm a newbie on this site again.

[skipro101 0]

I too am looking into this as a possibility 5 years out.

I think I can help you with the runway lengths...

For a 182, groundroll is approx 600ft and takeoff distance over 50ft obstacle is approx, 1500ft...standard conditions.

an otter at maximum weight has about 760ft ground run and 1200ft distance over a 50ft obstacle.


I would think a 2000ft grass strip with room to expand (ie,..buy 4000ft but only develop 2000ft for runway) would be damn good. This would allow for student pilots to train there (more $) and also give some leeway for error for the heavily loaded planes on a 100F day.

It wouldnt have to be this big...but you might as well plan big so you can expand later (you woudlnt need to get lights/maintain runway/etc for a 4000footer, but if you do it for 2k feet and know you have 4000ft if you want to expand...well that rocks.


Also, youll want a big landing area. Say at least...1500X1000ft

[quade 4]

Quote

Of course....the longer the better but I'm looking for mins.

Take the greatest accelerate/stop distance (standing start to rotation speed and then back to a full stop) of all of the aircraft you're considering and multiply by 2. That should be the minimum length of the runway for commercial ops.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AndyMan 7]

As comparison, Skydive Chicago's runway is 4522 feet long and 50 feet wide. I understand it was designed with the same criteria you've specified - eg, to be able to handle any jumpship, ever.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[riggerrob 643]

Practical minimum runway length for a Cessna is about 2,000 feet of grass.
A King Air needs at least 3,300 feet of asphalt, because those expensive propellers are too easy to nick.
Don't plan for minimums. Leave your junior pilots large margins of error for hot, heavy, busy days.
Speaking of margins, clear approaches make a huge difference. At least another thousand feet of empty grass off either end of the runway is always welcome.

[Plummets 0]

I built one once in the Caribbean, it was extending a 2000ft which took twin otters to a 4000ft to take American Eagle ??ATR83s or something like that (can remember they were dropping out of the sky in icy weather so were moving them somewhere warmer, something bizzare like that anyway)

I digress, get hold of ICAO annexe 14, gives you chapter and verse, inner transitional slopes, which is a slope to the sides etc which buildings and things cannot penetrate...... Its a book about an inch thick of mindless drivel and numbers but will tell you what you want to know. PM me if you really want to know might have an old copy kicking around somewhere

"Life is a bowl of deadly nightshade, stay way way out on the rim brother"

[BikerBabe 0]

here's a really nice description of how to compute takeoff and landing speeds/distances. It also includes a section on runway length!

http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~lutze/AOE3104/takeoff&landing.pdf

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[LawnDart21 0]

We have a 2820 ft runway with about another 400ft of grass. We have a Casa boogie every year, and while they use every inch of the grass after the runway for take off.......lol. They get up and down no problem.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[nicknitro71 0]

Build a 1800' surrounded by obstacles. Then you will have only good pilots flying your loads

Actually that is the set-up we have and we fly a queen air.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[jverley 1]

Wow, that gave me a headache just glancing through it!

I gave up on that kind of math when I went changed my major form Physics to Business.

John
Arizona Hiking Trails

[tombuch 0]

Quote

We have a 2820 ft runway with about another 400ft of grass. We have a Casa boogie every year, and while they use every inch of the grass after the runway for take off.......lol.

So what happens if the airplane blows an engine at rotation? Will it still climb? Will it have enough runway to stop?

My suggestion when computing runway length is to follows Quade's suggestion as follows:

Quote

Take the greatest accelerate/stop distance (standing start to rotation speed and then back to a full stop) of all of the aircraft you're considering and multiply by 2. That should be the minimum length of the runway for commercial ops.

For everybody else...ask your pilots what they will do if they blow an engine at rotation on the runway they are now using. How much single-engine climb performance will they have with a full load of jumpers and full fuel on a hot day, and how much distance will they need to stop on the runway if they choose to abort following engine failure. At what point in the take off run do they need to make a commitment to fly? At what point in the take off run will they have enough airspeed to control a multiengine airplane on just one engine?

Safety is all about planning for the worst case. I just don't think "lol" is the best response when a pilot is squeaking his flight off the runway with no room to spare.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[timp 0]

If they used all the grass and then lost the engine on rotation they would probably carwheel through the field in front of them (or the building...).

Thankfully, most pilots would not accept this levle of risk - especially as operating beyond the limits of the airframe or operating handbook can prove interesting insurance-wise in the event of an incident. It's not just the losing your licence to the FAA and the claim against you or your estate, it's the prison time that can get really galling...

Best option if you are concerned is to ask the pilot what the minima for the aircraft actually are, and see what the 'spare' runway equates to. Then see if you would be happy to jump a rig with that level of safety margin.

Airline Transport Pilot (ATPL JAA)

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Safety is all about planning for the worst case. I just don't think "lol" is the best response when a pilot is squeaking his flight off the runway with no room to spare.

I think it also depends on whats at either end of the runway.

For example at Hinckley, the runway is only 2400 feet. I'm not too paranoid about planes like a CASA, because both ends of the runway are plowed fields, often with small crops like soybean.

While I certainly prefer a Skyvan over the Casa when there's corn growing, I'm pretty sure that if the Casa lost an engine they would only bend metal, not kill skydivers.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[PhreeZone 20]

The Casa is also specifically rated to climb on one engine at rotation speeds with a Max load. They also have the option in the Casa of using the emergency option (don't know the name of it) that overrides the engines and lets them get more power in an emergency situation.

As far as I know the Casa is the only jump plane used everyday thats certified to do that. I might be wrong though.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhreeZone 20]

SDC may have designed it to handle any jumpship ever, but Roger also told me he put in run off area just in case and its a good thing he did. There has alrady been one Skyvan that ran off the end on take off. Roger told me it was during the 300 way attempts that one of the Skyvans just never got enough lift on the hot summer day and ended up using all the 4500 feet of runway and needed the grass run off to stop in.

Its not just the planes, its the pilots and conditions that also that determine the runway length.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[calphoto 0]

Flew a Twin-Bonanza for a couple of years out of 2400' of gravel, and had no problems. At that same DZ, they had operated a Beech 18 for years when it had 2000'. They also had a Twin Otter, a Porter, and an Islander during that time.
Flew a jumper King Air A90 out of 3100' of turf, and on a hot day we were hard pressed to clear the fence with a full load of jumpers. If we had had to abort I am sure that we would have eaten some barbed wire, but there was plenty of overrun (bean fields) on the other side of the fence.
Another airport had 3400' of asphalt, and handled Otters and a Casa easily. Only had to worry about climb rate on a hot NC day. Key to the safety was being able to run the engines up on the paved runway prior to brake release, a luxury not afforded on gravel or some grass strips.
C130 assault operations (you said full range ) use a standard 3000', and handle it quite comfortably. This can be taken shorter with waivers, but you accept the fact that if you lose an engine you are doomed.
Don't know about 727's except that they LOVE to hug the runway. KC135/707's, from the same era, also did. Anything under 10,000' of wide concrete was considered an emergency operation. Perhapt you could operate it locally out of a larger airport? you've got enough jumpers to support a 737?
:)
If you can do it, having a PAVED run up area at the end of the runway would maximize your loads every time. The whole runway does not have to be paved, just a 50' to 100' x 100' pad at the end that you would normally take off from. If you can set your brakes and run the engines up to mostly full power before releasing brakes, you have effectively gained a couple of hundred feet of runway vice a rolling takeoff, which you have to do in gravel and most grass to save your prop tips.
How are the neighbors?

Hartwood Paracenter - The closest DZ to DC!

[aeromobile 0]

I've never built my own runway, but I understand it isn't that much paperwork with the FAA. The majority of your problems or lack of them are with the local ordinances. The FAA really doesn't care where you build it as long as it doesn't interfere with the international airport.

You can jump through controlled airspace, but to operate an efficient DZ, you have to consider how close it is to the local class B airspace. You should also consider the arrival gates to the major airports. You don't want to continually hold the loads for arriving and departing jet traffic.

[calphoto 0]

For you SkyVan Drivers out there, what is the shortest practical length you would safely operate a SkyVan out of? Would you be able to reqularly operate it out of 2500' of Gravel?

Hartwood Paracenter - The closest DZ to DC!