ZegeunerLeben 0 #1 January 11, 2004 >>Today my worst fear vis-à-vis an off DZ landing was realized...I had to land in a vineyard. It was my first jump at this particular DZ. After an uneventful freefall, I deployed @ 3.5. I did my controllability check, and looked around for the landing area, and realized I didn't know where I was. I searched for other canopies, and I saw two (only) flying toward the landing area, which was about a mile away. I dipped my rear risers, hoping to make it back. About two thirds of the way back, I began to think I wasn't going to make it back. I started looking for some outs, and saw that there was nothing but vineyards in every direction. I dipped harder on the rear risers, hoping I could still make it, but my canopy started to stall, and the spot on the ground that wasn't moving wasn't getting any closer. I realized I was going to land in the vineyard, like it or not. I used rear risers to try and line up between the narrow three-foot separation between rows. As I was setting up, a crosswind blew to the right, across one row of barbed-wire fences @ approx. 20 ft, into the next row. I compensated with my left riser, and managed to land about six inches from a metal steel post crowned with barbed wire. I PLF'd without flaring, and both my toggles were stowed throughout the entire ordeal. I made it through with only sprains, cuts and bruises. This was far scarier for me than my cut-away. I would greatly appreciate ANY advice or criticism, or similar experiences about this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hazarrd 1 #2 January 11, 2004 you said you did a controlability check, but then you said that your toggles were stowed the whole time. why didnt you release the toggles, or am I misunderstanding something? .-. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #3 January 11, 2004 Dude, I'm no guru. I reckon it's better to bail out early and choose an alternate landing site - play it super safe. I've been told it's a good idea to overfly any alternate landing area too, check for hazards like power poles (you won't see lines) fences etc. If you are going to "push it back" always have an out or two up your sleeve. You usually need to more than make it back to, to allow for a turn into wind and setup. The canopy gurus maybe able to give you tips about extending range. I get best on my canopy by: collapse and stow slider, loosen chest strap, blow brakes then push rear risers apart. On hot days thermals can help too. Glad your okay. I got scared just reading that! Blue ones, Benno PS: One of my team mates stopped me flying around with my brakes set. He told me off: If I had to unset them and I was low and there was something wrong then he'd be looking for another team mate! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 January 11, 2004 Why'd you leave your toggles stowed? After taking a canopy control course I learned that if you are traveling with the wind you'll get back further by using the brakes (1/2 to 3/4) than you will using rear risers. Play with it on your next jump and see which one gets you further. Good job walking (limping) away! Vineyards don't look like any fun to land in at all... those damn "parasicles" every few feet... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #5 January 11, 2004 Some good reasons to release your brakes ASAP: [http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=748531;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread] [http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=653149;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread] [http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=470530;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread] [http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=489493;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #6 January 11, 2004 QuoteSome good reasons to release your brakes ASAP: Clicky 1 Clicky 2 Clicky 3 Clicky 4 Fixed clickies. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #8 January 11, 2004 By one thousand feet, you should have chosen your alternate landing area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #9 January 11, 2004 QuoteAbout two thirds of the way back, I began to think I wasn't going to make it back. I started looking for some outs, I think this is the root of your problem. It shouldn't take you this long to realize that you're not going to make it."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #10 January 12, 2004 Jason, Why didn't you use your toggles? You have most control with your toggles. I'm glad you were on the 210 and not the 190 yet. PM, we need to talk Hey Jason! Your mom's calling you! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #11 January 12, 2004 Umm... Never mind... Bonnie read this first My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #12 January 12, 2004 Quote After taking a canopy control course I learned that if you are traveling with the wind you'll get back further by using the brakes (1/2 to 3/4) than you will using rear risers. LOL - after taking a canopy control course I learned that if you are travelling with the wind you'll get back further by using the rear risers than you will using brakes. Just goes to show that there are differing opinions of those who give the courses not only those who take them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #13 January 12, 2004 QuoteLOL - after taking a canopy control course I learned that if you are travelling with the wind you'll get back further by using the rear risers than you will using brakes. Just goes to show that there are differing opinions of those who give the courses not only those who take them. Yup, YMMV. That's why I said to play with both brakes and rear risers on a jump where getting back isn't an issue; on my canopy at my wingloading flying with the wind, deep brakes gets me further than using rears does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #14 January 12, 2004 Quoteon my canopy at my wingloading flying with the wind, deep brakes gets me further than using rears does. How did you find this out? I imagine the only way would be two people with the exact same canopy and wl starting side-by-side..."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #15 January 12, 2004 QuoteHow did you find this out? By watching the ground in full flight, holding rears, and holding deep brakes. I cover more ground in the same amount of time at 3/4 brakes than I do on rears. It surprised me, because I always thought I'd get more using rears than I would using brakes. But again, YMMV. All I can say is try it and see what works best for your canopy and wingloading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #16 January 12, 2004 What I've found is that most people pull too far down on their rear risers - so they tend to be riding it on the edge of a stall and they don't get back as far. I've never owned a canopy where I couldn't get back farther on rears, but you have to be very careful - most of my canopies 1/2 inch or so of rear risers gives me best glide. Never more than an inch. For people who aren't practiced at this however, deep brakes will work better. But in either situation - unstow your brakes first - rear risers combined with stowed brakes will almost certainly make your glide ratio horrible... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #17 January 12, 2004 Quote rear risers combined with stowed brakes will almost certainly make your glide ratio horrible... Funny - and yet not, because here you see what happens when advice is only partly understood. I don't know if the original poster (who started this thread) did pick a few brains on his home DZ or on DZ.com, but we can safely say he acted upon advice that was not understood that well. We debate - confronted with this proverbial LOOOONG spot - whether you should fly with a certain amount of brakes or you should fly with the rear risers and we know what we are talking about (at least you do Wendy, and I'm supposed to have learned a few things also, I guess...) We take into account different winds at different altitudes, different canopy-characteristics, etc. etc. Flying back on your rear risers AND LEAVING YOUR BRAKES STOWED is not ever recommended and we leave that out of the equation 'naturally'... We take for granted that everybody understands at least THAT. Someone didn't. Interesting lesson for all of us giving and receiving advice on the DZ or the forum.... Another observation: Maybe he heard about this 'long spot debate' (rear-risers / pull your brakes) and decided to be on the safe side by aplying BOTH methods... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #18 January 12, 2004 QuoteI've never owned a canopy where I couldn't get back farther on rears, but you have to be very careful - most of my canopies 1/2 inch or so of rear risers gives me best glide. Never more than an inch. Interesting. I'm going to play with that on my next jump. Thanks Wendy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZegeunerLeben 0 #19 January 13, 2004 >>I apologize for being unclear, I posted shortly after the incident. After I thought through the whole thing again, I remembered that after I stood up, I stowed my toggles and started to gather my canopy, then sat back down again for a minute. When I got back up, I was surprised to see my toggles stowed...I guess I was shaken and forgot I was flying back w/toggles & risers, but should have found some better outs earlier. Sorry for the confusion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 28 #20 January 13, 2004 after reading this post i know, why i have a good look at aerials of dz's i haven't jumped before and why i preferably take a long walk around. or a drive with a car of approx. 4 miles circle. afterwards i know the topographical features and where the possible spots for outlandings are. what i am wondering about: if you jump at a dz with neigboring vineyards, do people tell you how to land in one of these? what to take care of, the do's & dont's? my dz has many vineyards around and it's about the first things students and newcomers are told. any input on how you handle this is highly appreciatedThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiventom 0 #21 January 14, 2004 Hehee... I used to jump there a lot. Please tell Kathy I love her. "Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" -Groucho Marx- "Tom flies like a rock" -Tom Carson- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shawndiver 0 #22 January 14, 2004 Zeg, Congrats on not being impaled! I have jumped there for many years, and as many have suggested, if you even THINK there is a question, start looking for an alternate early and often! Be careful though of the access roads surrounding the fields, often times you may encounter wires running along them, and in between fields. I have had many off DZ landings here over the years, and have only had to put it down in the grape stakes once... under a 22' SAC round reserve! That'll really get your heart rate up! Cya! Shawn_________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZegeunerLeben 0 #23 January 14, 2004 Wow, and I thought I had it bad...trying to land it under a round reserve is quite another thing! I guess I was so focused on trying to get back I lost sight of the fact I should have been looking for better outs. Won't make that mistake again tho'; I'm gonna be constantly looking for outs, wherever I may be. I'm also going to do a better job of checking the spot before exiting, and ask for a second pass if I have to. Live and Learn! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ZegeunerLeben 0 #19 January 13, 2004 >>I apologize for being unclear, I posted shortly after the incident. After I thought through the whole thing again, I remembered that after I stood up, I stowed my toggles and started to gather my canopy, then sat back down again for a minute. When I got back up, I was surprised to see my toggles stowed...I guess I was shaken and forgot I was flying back w/toggles & risers, but should have found some better outs earlier. Sorry for the confusion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #20 January 13, 2004 after reading this post i know, why i have a good look at aerials of dz's i haven't jumped before and why i preferably take a long walk around. or a drive with a car of approx. 4 miles circle. afterwards i know the topographical features and where the possible spots for outlandings are. what i am wondering about: if you jump at a dz with neigboring vineyards, do people tell you how to land in one of these? what to take care of, the do's & dont's? my dz has many vineyards around and it's about the first things students and newcomers are told. any input on how you handle this is highly appreciatedThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiventom 0 #21 January 14, 2004 Hehee... I used to jump there a lot. Please tell Kathy I love her. "Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" -Groucho Marx- "Tom flies like a rock" -Tom Carson- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shawndiver 0 #22 January 14, 2004 Zeg, Congrats on not being impaled! I have jumped there for many years, and as many have suggested, if you even THINK there is a question, start looking for an alternate early and often! Be careful though of the access roads surrounding the fields, often times you may encounter wires running along them, and in between fields. I have had many off DZ landings here over the years, and have only had to put it down in the grape stakes once... under a 22' SAC round reserve! That'll really get your heart rate up! Cya! Shawn_________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZegeunerLeben 0 #23 January 14, 2004 Wow, and I thought I had it bad...trying to land it under a round reserve is quite another thing! I guess I was so focused on trying to get back I lost sight of the fact I should have been looking for better outs. Won't make that mistake again tho'; I'm gonna be constantly looking for outs, wherever I may be. I'm also going to do a better job of checking the spot before exiting, and ask for a second pass if I have to. Live and Learn! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
