Winds

[Hooknswoop 19]

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OK! OK!! OK!!! I'm the damn student who posted the damn question in the first place. Can we please drop the whole thing? I just asked a simple question about canopy performance. I never questioned Archways ability to make safe skydives. Archways safety record speaks for itself. The whole post got blown completely out of proportion. And the day of the skydive, every skydive went great! Everyone I knew that went up was happy, and came down much happier. I'm positive you can't be more safety conscious than Archway is. As I said before, there safety record proves that. As far as instruction at Archway, my instructors are very experienced, and very well trained. I got my answer on what the feeling was that I felt under canopy.

Imagine if I asked the following on a SCUBA newsgroup:

"I was doing my first open water dive with my Instructor. After we came up from 80 feet and stopped at 15 feet, I ran out of air. I gave my Instructor the 'out-of-air' signal and he gave me his octopus. We immediately went to the surface sine the Instructor was almost out of air too. Should I have skipped buddy breathing and just gone to the surface or did I do the right thing? We started the dive with 1800 PSI each, I went through my air a little faster than my Instructor.”

What do you think the responses would sound like? Do you think no one would point out the dangerous position the Instructor put me in? Do you think that other divers might suggest I find a different Instructor? Do you think that people that dive with the Instructor might defend him and tell everyone how safe he is? Can you see why, based on my post, people would get the impression that he is not safe? Let’s say I only had 4 hours of diving instruction and wasn’t told that was too deep of a dive and not enough air, how much fault should I share for running out of air?

I did a dive not too long after getting SCUBA certified in the Bahamas. It was to 155 feet (dive computer), 400 feet back into a cave (Guardian Blue Hole cave on Andros Island). We had over-pressurized single 80’s on and no specialized cave equipment. We didn’t even have back-up lights. I got Nitrogen Narcosis on the dive, but didn’t turn back, and had zero cave diving training or experience. I was in WAY over my head and didn’t even know it until I got more diving experience and realized how out of my depth I had been. I went of the dive because a friend of mine said, “Let’s go.” He knew my diving experience (4 or 5 dives-total), so I figured he would keep me out of trouble. Because I didn’t know any better, I was put into a dangerous situation.

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Can we be done now. Please?

The original thread didn’t have a reply for almost a month, until this thread was started. It had been dropped.

Derek

[mojosme 0]

Congratulations Dan. Only 3 jumps and you're the center of controversy. I was well over a hundred jumps before I got there. Just kidding. Seriously, all this DZ/instructor bashing is making me feel like Archway is being personally attacked.

[canopycudler 0]

I sent you an email.
In any event, from my end consider it dropped. This weekend is supposed to be nice weather, and if not, we can at least do skydiving related things!

See ya soon! Blue Skies

good skydives, good friends and good beer.. thats what its all about.
..

[dkf1979 0]

Shew!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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to some of the other folks who made conclusions by assumng things they were not entitled to do.

Which of these is wrong?:

1) The student was backing up

2) The previous loads had jumpers (possibly students) backing up

3) The Instructor could have reasonably concluded that if he took the student(s) up he (they) they would be backing up under canopy also.

4) Students jumping in winds that cause them to be backing up under canopy is unsafe.

5) The Instructor should not have taken the student(s) up in the aircraft.

I am not bashing the DZ, only pointing out facts. If they are negative towards the DZ, that is not my doing. That does not change the facts.

A safe DZ does not put students in unsafe situations if they can prevent it.

Derek

[chuckbrown 0]

I find it interesting that the JM or S&TA at the DZ on the day in question hasn't provided their perspective. I see that Canopycudler is an instructor at Archway, maybe she could get the instructor/ S&TA to provide their thoughts on why students were put up in those winds. I understand why dkf1979 wants to say that "Nobody is at fault," but there is fault here even though nobody was hurt. The reason his initial post got such a reaction is that winds are the 800 pound gorilla in this sport. They will kill/maim you if you're not careful. Students don't know any better & rely on the professional experience of JMs to determine what is safe and what isn't.

What if one of these students did a downwind landing in 20 mph winds? Radios have been known to not work, and students have been known to not respond to landing instructions. IMHO, the moderators have done an excellent job in responding to the initial post and properly criticizing what appears to have been an indefensible lack of judgment.

[canopycudler 0]

I am responding one last time, It was going to be to hooknswoops last email to me, but I got a kick out of your humor on this one and it made me laugh

He emailed me as to why I am not disputing any of the responses he has made. It is not becuase I think I am wrong, or have any fear of posting my thoughts on here. It is because I have a life. I work and I skydive. I do not sit online all day to disagree with folks on dropzone.com.

I'm not sure what hooknswoop does for a living, but i sure hope he makes as many jumps as he does posts.

Blue Skies & Safe Jumps to all of you.
Tina
D26222

good skydives, good friends and good beer.. thats what its all about.
..

[J.Mark 0]

OK, it appears it's time to respond. I'm Jason Mark, the dzo of Archway. I've been monitoring this thread and trying to stay out of it. We appreciate the positive comments towards Archway, and negative ones - well you're entitled to your own opinions.

This whole thread appears to be nothing but quoting one another, picking apart the quotes, and bashing your fellow skydivers. Nothing has been based on facts or the actual events or circumstances of that particular day, even though you may think you know them.

I'm not going to respond again. Bottom Line - If any of you have any questions, or concerns about our staff, safety record, or safety practices, then call me - or better yet - come see for yourself and visit Archway. Everyone is welcome.

Jason

[Leah 0]

What this comes down to is the student must chalk this up to a learning experience.

I will have to take your words for what they are because I actually know nothing about skydiving. I have never attempted to skydive a day in my life and frankly it scares me to death. You all are probably making very valid points and have learned by doing. Me on the other hand I have just been an outsider looking in. How many of you did I actually have fooled?

If anyone decides to jump out of a perfectly good plane just for fun they must assess all of the risks that come with the responsiblity of deciding to do this. I understand that they must rely on instructors to direct them during this adventure, but come on when a worse case seniro is death, you should be greatful just to back up.

I think that it is great how some of you were debating the facts with me when I don't know any facts at all concerning this sport. I think that a select few of you should take the time to read the posts and make an educated guess on who actually knows what they are talking about before you take the time out of what I will assume is your busy day.

In order to avoid all dangerous situations you must live in a bubble. Be prepared for anything that mother nature, a friend or an enemy can throw in your direction. Don't step off of the curb to soon, don't cross a busy street or highway and please don't run with sciccors.

Live Everyday to its fullest.
Sorry for tricking some of you and for the ones who knew that I had no clue what I was talking about, Good for you.

Leah

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm not sure what hooknswoop does for a living, but i sure hope he makes as many jumps as he does posts.

Hooknswoop is a trusted and very experienced jumper. He's got every rating, he's an I/E in them, he's a Rigger, he was an S&TA. I don't know how much more qualified you'd have to be to make the observations that he's making. If you had to be more qualified, there would only be a handful of people in the sport that would be qualified to do that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mr2mk1g 10]

Christ a 000 jump wonder... I'd call beer, but I'd bet this isnt the first time

[billvon 2,991]

>Nothing has been based on facts or the actual events or
> circumstances of that particular day, even though you may think you
> know them.

Are you saying the student was posting a fictional account of his experiences? As the DZO, you would be the ideal person to correct this account by posting what the actual events were, if you choose to do so. If not, that's fine also, but then his account will be the only first-hand account, and as such will be the most relevant.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I am responding one last time, It was going to be to hooknswoops last email to me, but I got a kick out of your humor on this one and it made me laugh

He emailed me as to why I am not disputing any of the responses he has made. It is not becuase I think I am wrong, or have any fear of posting my thoughts on here. It is because I have a life. I work and I skydive. I do not sit online all day to disagree with folks on dropzone.com.

I'm not sure what hooknswoop does for a living, but i sure hope he makes as many jumps as he does posts.

So your response is you think you are right, but don't have the time to explain any further since you have a life and I don't? Hmmm.

And yes, I have more jumps than posts.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Nothing has been based on facts or the actual events or circumstances of that particular day

What are the facts then? Several people have said the facts are not what we have been led to believe they are, but no one has supplied the 'correct' facts that contradict the facts as we know them.

Derek

[skymedic 0]

Hey tina...a little bit about Derek for you to know...

First skydive: 24 June 1995
Last skydive 2 January 2004
3333 skydives
1574 jumps on canopies under 100 sq. ft.
900 tandem skydives (Eclipse, Vector II, and Sigma)
D-18847
AFF I/E
TDM I/E
S/L I/E
PRO rating
Senior Parachute Rigger, Back and Chest
450-ish reserve re-packs
30-ish saves
PPSEL

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Tonedog1980 0]

Ok I was there on this day. Dkf1979 is basicly my partner in skydiving. First I want to say this. You the hell are you guys?!?!?! You act like this is some kind of court hearing or something. Saying stuff like you need to hear from the instructors and that people are at fault or what not. You are just skydivers like everyone else. Some of you only have about 100 jumps, but yet you still think you are pros. So, don't go out throughing insults in peoples faces when you where not there and when you know nothing of Archway. First off you where not there, so you do not know how high the winds where. These student chutes are very big and fly slow, expecialy when winds are just blowing a little harder then normal. I tell you this, on this day I had the most fun I have ever had skydiving. I never once felt unsafe or anything. It was kind of fun flying in backwards, BUT once we got to about 500 feet we where able to turn and come in forwards. SO, we did not land backwards or even have to start thinking about landing untill we where going forwards. And we might have even been higher then 500 feet when we started moving forwards. I have a video of me landing. It was the softest landing I have ever had. It was perfect. I can load it up on our website if you don't believe me. Also with the example of you running out of air while diving that is just rediculious. In that example you actually where about to die. You ran out of air. That is a little more drastic then this. We never said we where in any kind of danger now did we?!?!?!?!? Nobody else that jumped that day said anything about experencing this kind of drop. So, it could have just been a change in air pressure or anything else. I have not been on this web site for long but one thing I have noticed in my short time here is that you people love to bash people. If you think they where being unsafe or the instructors are not looking out for the student, why don't you send him a private message. If the person, such as dkf1979 feels that he was in real danger or anything like that he can talk with proper athorities, not a bunch of skydivers looking to be Mr. Knowitalls. I jumped that day with dkf1979 I was in the plane with him. I went right after he did, and I loved it. Tell you the truth I don't know what the big deal is with flying backwards anyways. It was kind of nice. We where flying slow as can be. It was a nice peacefull slow ride in, and it made for an extremly soft landing. I mean I only had to take like 1 or 2 steps after I landed if that. It was perfect. Now since then we have gone back a few times now. Before these post where even added and they wouldn't let us jump because winds where to high. One day it was only like 1 mph over what is legal and they wouldn't let us go. So, I know they pay attention to this kind of stuff. Tell you the truth I think you all owe dkf1979 and Archway an apolagie. dkf1979 feels horable about this now because we both love archway, they are great people and skilled skydivers. And now he feels like he has caused them trouble needlessly, because a buch of people that think they know everything have to get on here and bash them without knowing the facts. The JMs at Archway are very safe and very throu, they know what they are doing. I have never once felt unsafe here at archway, infact I am scared to go anywhere else because I trust these guys with my life. Like dkf1979 said there safty record speeks for its self. So pls think before you start bashing people next time. This has really cause a bunch of needless trouble. If you think it was unsafe then send a private message to dkf1979 and let him deside if it was unsafe. And if he feels like taking further action about it he will. Errrr this whole thing got way out of hand. I realy do think atleast you owe dkf1979 an apolige. All he asked was a valid question. If you want to post something then answer the question at hand, and if you have nothing to say about the question then don't post. Realy nobody asked anyones oppinion if it was safe or not, so why does everyone feel they have to add that in. If we felt it was unsafe we would have asked that. Like that stupid example about scuba diving. Of course if someone ran our of f**king air under water they would be asking if that was unsafe because that is something that is obvious. Here we where never in any danger and never felt unsafe. So.... SHHH!!!

Why live your life only to get to death safely? SKYDIVE!

[chuckbrown 0]

Gee Tonedog, I thought the point of this forum (Safety and Training) was so that new jumpers (you) could learn from the mistakes of others. I can understand if you don't want to listen to the opinions of jumpers with less than 100 jumps (or even 1,000 jumps), but the moderators are correct; putting students out in 20 mph winds is really, really stupid. Everybody makes mistakes, even the moderators, and obviously somebody at Archway; I've seen S&TAs that I have the utmost respect for make really dumb mistakes. Mistakes are only bad if we don't learn from them. Nobody's trying to flame anyone; this forum is about safety & safety is serious.

[billvon 2,991]

>Ok I was there on this day. . . . It was kind of fun flying in
>backwards . . .

> I went right after he did, and I loved it. Tell you the truth I don't
> know what the big deal is with flying backwards anyways.

If you are flying backwards under canopy, it means the winds are stronger than the forward drive of your canopy. This means several things:

1. The winds are strong. Strong winds mean an increased chance of turbulence; turbulence has injured and killed several people. Some of the people injured in this way post here.

2. If the winds are 25mph and your parachute glides at 20mph, you'll back up at 5mph. No big deal. But if you turn and run downwind, you will be going 45mph. Landing at 45mph can be a safety hazard. (Even landing at 35mph is a big deal.)

3. It is certainly possible to "back" into a landing area, but it's tough, since you have to look behind you _and_ in front of you, constantly.

Is it doable? Certainly. But it is definitely an issue to consider. It's not just fun; it's not perfect, and it often does _not_ give you really nice landings, which is what you seem to be implying.

>I have not been on this web site for long but one thing I have
>noticed in my short time here is that you people love to bash people.

I've been on it for a long time, and one thing that never ceases to amuse me are the people who get on and say "why are you losers bashing people?" So bash away; I'm used to it.

>I realy do think atleast you owe dkf1979 an apolige. All he asked
> was a valid question.

And he got valid answers. Jumping in high winds isn't that safe. This isn't a skydiving student support group, it's a safety and training forum. If you post something that sounds unsafe you will hear that it is unsafe. If you lie about it, and make it sound worse than it really was, then people will reply as if it was worse than it really was - because the only information they have is what was posted.

>If you want to post something then answer the question at hand,
>and if you have nothing to say about the question then don't post.

He asked "Why was my canopy dropping like that?" Answer - because high winds cause turbulence. That's one of the several reasons jumping in high winds can lead to problems.

>Realy nobody asked anyones oppinion if it was safe or not . . .

Then post it on a Yahoo support group, not a safety and training forum for skydivers. This forum is specifically intended to discuss what's safe and what isn't. Jumping in high winds isn't, and even another 1000 words about how great a given DZ is won't make it safe.

>Here we where never in any danger and never felt unsafe. So.... SHHH!!!

No problem; you are new jumpers, and don't yet have a good handle what's safe or unsafe. In case there's any question, jumping in high winds isn't all that safe; such conditions have injured and killed many skydivers. Now ya know.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Ok I was there on this day. Dkf1979 is basicly my partner in skydiving. First I want to say this. You the hell are you guys?!?!?! You act like this is some kind of court hearing or something. Saying stuff like you need to hear from the instructors and that people are at fault or what not. You are just skydivers like everyone else. Some of you only have about 100 jumps, but yet you still think you are pros.

I have a few more than 100 skydives.

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So, don't go out throughing insults in peoples faces when you where not there and when you know nothing of Archway.

What insults did I ‘throw out’?

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First off you where not there, so you do not know how high the winds where.

Correct, I was not there, but it makes little difference what the exact wind speed is if students are backing up under canopy.

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These student chutes are very big and fly slow, expecialy when winds are just blowing a little harder then normal.

They have the same airspeed regardless of the winds.

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I tell you this, on this day I had the most fun I have ever had skydiving. I never once felt unsafe or anything.

So, in your experience, backing up under canopy is no unsafe? And your experience is?

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It was kind of fun flying in backwards, BUT once we got to about 500 feet we where able to turn and come in forwards.

Oh well, if you stopped backing up at a round 500 feet, then I guess it is OK……………..(sarcasm)

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SO, we did not land backwards or even have to start thinking about landing untill we where going forwards.

You didn’t start thinking about landing until 500 feet? What altitude do you normally start you landing pattern?

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And we might have even been higher then 500 feet when we started moving forwards. I have a video of me landing. It was the softest landing I have ever had. It was perfect. I can load it up on our website if you don't believe me.

So because nothing happened, it wasn’t unsafe?

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Also with the example of you running out of air while diving that is just rediculious. In that example you actually where about to die. You ran out of air. That is a little more drastic then this. We never said we where in any kind of danger now did we?!?!?!?!?

A canopy collapse can kill you. Landing off the DZ in high winds can kill you. Flaring high while landing in high winds downwind can kill you. You didn’t say you were in any kind of danger, so backing up under canopy as a student must not be dangerous. Hmmm. All that time I wasted sitting on the ground when I could have been jumping with a student because I thought it was dangerous.

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Nobody else that jumped that day said anything about experencing this kind of drop. So, it could have just been a change in air pressure or anything else. I have not been on this web site for long but one thing I have noticed in my short time here is that you people love to bash people.

If drawing a conclusion from the information given is bashing people, then so be it. Sometimes conclusions are positive, sometimes negative.

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If you think they where being unsafe or the instructors are not looking out for the student, why don't you send him a private message.

Because others can learn from what happened.

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If the person, such as dkf1979 feels that he was in real danger or anything like that he can talk with proper athorities,

Which would be who?

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not a bunch of skydivers looking to be Mr. Knowitalls.

So he should not talk to people that are very knowledgeable about skydiving? Who again should he talk to?

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I jumped that day with dkf1979 I was in the plane with him. I went right after he did, and I loved it.

Cool.

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Tell you the truth I don't know what the big deal is with flying backwards anyways.

Jumping in winds that exceed the canopy’s airspeed present serious challenges to the pilot. It is difficult to see where you are going over the ground. A mistake can leave the jumper unable to reach the DZ. In the event of an off-DZ landing, a student may not have the benefit of radio assistance and may not be able to figure out which way the wind is blowing. This may cause them to miss their target and hit an obstacle. There is a reason 14 mph was established as the limit for students with a square reserve.

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It was kind of nice. We where flying slow as can be. It was a nice peacefull slow ride in, and it made for an extremly soft landing. I mean I only had to take like 1 or 2 steps after I landed if that. It was perfect. Now since then we have gone back a few times now. Before these post where even added and they wouldn't let us jump because winds where to high. One day it was only like 1 mph over what is legal and they wouldn't let us go.

Again, regardless of what is legal, students should not put under canopy if they will be backing up. I had a very light student. We decided (the student and I) that her wind limit would be 10 mph. Any higher and she would be backing up under canopy (a Sabre 170).

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So, I know they pay attention to this kind of stuff. Tell you the truth I think you all owe dkf1979 and Archway an apolagie. dkf1979 feels horable about this now because we both love archway, they are great people and skilled skydivers. And now he feels like he has caused them trouble needlessly, because a buch of people that think they know everything have to get on here and bash them without knowing the facts.

What part of this isn’t true?:

“I have 3 jumps. 1 tandem, and two static line jumps. On my last jump, the wind was gusting up to 20 mph. So when we jumped, we jumped way up wind. We held facing into the wind the whole ride back to the DZ. Which was kinda weird not being able to see the DZ the whole ride. But was good experience I guess. My other jumps I was able to go where I wanted. This time, i was full speed ahead.... but going backwards!!! Anyway, about 300 feet (I guess) off the ground, I kept feeling my canopy just drop. It seemed as if there was very little tension in my lines. As if there was no air under my canopy. It did it probably 3-4 times. It was really an uneasy feeling. It seemed to feel more stable when i pulled half brakes. But I was about to **** my pants in fear it was going to colapse. What was causing this. I've read of turbulence from large builings or trees. But the only buildings around me were the hangers behind me, which were downwind. And the closest thing upwind of me was probably an easy mile away, and that was trees. Archway skydiving is in Vandalia, IL. FARMLAND!! So the surrounding land is almost obstacle free. Why was my canopy dropping like that? I think i'm going to stick to sun shiny, 5-10 mph wind days.”

***The JMs at Archway are very safe and very throu, they know what they are doing. I have never once felt unsafe here at archway,

Hot tip: students backing up under canopy is unsafe.

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infact I am scared to go anywhere else because I trust these guys with my life.

There are excellent Instructors all over the country.

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Like dkf1979 said there safty record speeks for its self.

No third party organization tracks DZ’s safety records. There are no safety records in skydiving.

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So pls think before you start bashing people next time.

Who did I bash?

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This has really cause a bunch of needless trouble. If you think it was unsafe then send a private message to dkf1979 and let him deside if it was unsafe.

Why keep it quiet? To protect the DZ? You talked about safety records, why not keep things public?

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And if he feels like taking further action about it he will. Errrr this whole thing got way out of hand. I realy do think atleast you owe dkf1979 an apolige.

An apology! For explaining that students backing up under canopy is not safe? Should I also apologize to the jumper at Eloy that had the misrouted cutaway cable housings?

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asked was a valid question. If you want to post something then answer the question at hand, and if you have nothing to say about the question then don't post.

Thanks for advice, but pointing out that he should not have been backing up under canopy is part of the answer.

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Realy nobody asked anyones oppinion if it was safe or not, so why does everyone feel they have to add that in.***

Because it is important. If a jumper with 100 jumps started asking about how a Velocity 89 flys loaded at 2:1, should I only tell him how it flys, or should I tell him that a jumper with 100 jumps should not be flying a Velocity 89 loaded at 2:1?

***If we felt it was unsafe we would have asked that. Like that stupid example about scuba diving. Of course if someone ran our of f**king air under water they would be asking if that was unsafe because that is something that is obvious. Here we where never in any danger and never felt unsafe. So.... SHHH!!!

So because YOU felt it wasn’t unsafe, it wasn’t? What do you base this conclusion on?

Derek

[SkydiveMO 0]

The unfortunate problem with an open forum like a discussion board is things can quickly turn into a pissing contest. I believe several individuals need to remove themselves a bit from the discussion and look more objectively at the situation being discussed. Don’t let emotion win over common courtesy.

The original post addressed a new jumpers concern about his canopy flying differently under windy conditions. Many who explained turbulence and other phenomena related with wind properly addressed this post. Others were also correct in voicing concern with the following of BSRs relating to students and wind speeds. As it has been stated prior Archway does, and has had for many years, a waiver allowing students to jump in winds up to 20mph. This is allowed because the DZ is surrounded by farmland which is flat and free of hazards, with the exception of tall corn in the growing season. The instructors involved are very experienced, several with over a decade of training experience. So, it is only natural that many of the jumpers at Archway feel a need to fervently defend their home DZ.

Rather than attacking individuals or throwing out accusations the greater good would be served with a discussion of safety and offering alternative actions you may have taken based on your experiences. For instance Derek (Hooksnswoop) has concerns with students being allowed to jump in higher wind conditions. With his experience and obvious dedication to our sport, evident by the examiner ratings, it is improper to question his concern for student safety. I’m sure his arguments can be backed up with years of experience working with students. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that he would agree that Archway acted well within the USPA safety rules but he would disagree with their choice to allow a student to jump on the occasion in question. For those who make blanket statements, pro or con, about any DZ or person you are simply stirring up trouble and offer nothing to anyone. Give evidence for your arguments and help us all learn from each other.

At every DZ it is the job of the Instructor, S&TA and Jumpmasters (coaches) to decide if conditions are safe for a student to jump not only according to the BSRs but also according to the students abilities. In this case it was decided that the students would be allowed to jump because they were current and showed the ability in prior jumps to handle the conditions of the day. This and all other decisions are partially based on the experience of the Instructors involved. Experience is a funny thing, as it is different for everyone. We could second-guess any decision ever made at any DZ and in the end we would all differ in our interpretation based on our own experiences.

If you wish to add to any discussion try to help skydivers learn more about their sport, voice you opinions in terms we can all live with. For instance…

Pro- I think it’s a good idea to let students jump on windy day because they’re in a learning environment where they can be coached. Later when they’ve graduated and are no longer under instructor supervision they won’t be surprised by how their canopy handles. When I was a student….

Con- I believe students should never be subjected to higher wind conditions. They are already under the high stress of being a new jumper and high winds can add an additional dimension that may lead to poor decisions being made. When I was a student…

Don’t attack each other attack the issue at hand. No one ever wins a pissing contest they just get pissed on.

Jason

[canopycudler 0]

Thanks Marc for posting his credentials, but I was aware of them when I made the post.

My original post was made referencing quotes made by dz.commers that were right out of the SIM, they were directed at our dropzone and the quality of our instructors. We are well aware of the SIM and the BSR's that are stated. There are execptions and waivers that might had varied your responses of the few quotes that I referenced in my first post, but your statments to Dan did not reflect those waivers.

Your right, Jason, this is not a pissing match. Spending hours upon hours disecting every sentence said is redicolus, and I am done.

I have no doubt that Derek is an instructor that looks out for the best interest of his students, but just becuase you have all the ratings doesn't mean you have the right to make assumptions and judgements of another person, instructor or incident if you were not there. This goes for the incident which we are discussing and ANY OTHER incident that might arise.

Instead of being judgemental, we should share out experiences for our fellow skydivers to learn from

Be that said and done, I wish you all a good safe season,
Tina

good skydives, good friends and good beer.. thats what its all about.
..

[TALONSKY 0]

Instead of being judgemental, we should share out experiences for our fellow skydivers to learn from

________________________________________________

Hey Tina, wasn't that what every one was doing. You are the one who came out here ranting about the advise others gave. It seems to me that you are the one that blew up to what it became.
Blue sky
Kirk

[SkydiveMO 0]

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Hey Tina, wasn't that what every one was doing...

As I basically said before finger pointing hardly helps anyone. Many have been ranting and emotions have been high, I think Tina realizes that and hopefully other do too.

[bfugate 0]

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I dont even have enough jumps to act like I know what I'm talking about.

We can all tell!

[bfugate 0]

I have never got into reading this bullshit in these forums, because I have better things to to than read about crybaby little pussy's whining about this and critisizing that. If I was into that sort of thing I would have gotten married. I only read this post because I was curious after hearing about it from some friends (yes, if you pry yourselves from your keyboard and got out sometimes, you might have one or two of them)!! Well, probably not...

Hooknswoop, who the fuck died and made you God??? I don't care what rating you have, how many jumps you have, or how big your dick is. You should be experienced enough in the sport to realize that EGO kills too! You are so big headed that you have to pick apart and critisize everybody's posts that aren't supporting your opinion. You are a pompus asshole and you need to grow up!!!!