kingcloud14000 0 #1 April 8, 2004 I was shocked to see the reply i got in the video forums from another jumper. qote (Much like anyone who's spent more than a few years on a DZ, I've seen your type come and go. Some go on their own, and some go in an ambulance, the good part is that they just go.) I have been in this sport 5 years now and i relly hate to see a jumper leave, and even more when one die's. all this came about because i ask a question about rather using a helment target for video is better than using a goggle target. So blue skies and bright night's hope there are more helpfull jumpers here than this guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #2 April 8, 2004 I'm the 'shocking 'guy. Read the complete thread. I stand behind what I said, and the context in which it was said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #3 April 8, 2004 hey there, what i read here bothered me... the negativity and harshness. so, i went and looked at the other posts you were referring to. i have to say that i agree with dave. though his words were harsh, he may have been doing you a huge favor by discouraging you from rushing in this sport. you are not experienced enough to be flying a camera, period. don't expect a concerned skydiver to sugarcoat their criticism. it is our resposibility to look out for each other. take your time. turn that 5 years in the sport into 50. blues, liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kingcloud14000 0 #4 April 8, 2004 OK. I may have rushed the camera jumping but now I have started it I feel comfertable with it I dont jump without it now it just feels right to have it there. And if what dave said was to help thank you but it sure did not sound like it. yes dave has more experence i give you that but the 3 jumpers i have seen die where jumpers with the same attitude as him. All i am saying is dave dont sugarcoat your message but dang dont tell some one to leave the sport eather. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #5 April 8, 2004 I said that people with your attitude, as expressed in you response to my original post , were better off not on the DZ. And yes I have seen those people go in ambulances (the very reason the DZ is better off without people with that attitude). Use your head. Consider your limitations, and your lack of experiecne. Just because it works today, don't count on things going well tomorrow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jb092 0 #6 April 8, 2004 I have to agree with Dave. I have well over a thousand jumps with a camera. I didnt put it on untill I had 500. There is no need to rush in this sport, by doing that you will be rushing out of it. What could possibly go wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #7 April 8, 2004 Dave has some valid points. He asked you to observe your limitations. You admit to starting camera flying too early. Without looking at your set up it would be hard to say how much of an added work load it proposes regardless of how comfortable you feel with it. That said, Dave's response was way wrong, or rather his delivery of the message. Dave wants to have a positive impact on young fresh jumpers and sours them with a negative message. Nobody wants to see an ambulance on the dropzone but if the message is going to fall on deaf soured ears, you might as well have said nothing. Sometimes you need to sugercoat so that nothing but your true message is heard and not how tired YOU are of seeing jumpers do things before they are ready. If your message is not constructive they may "shop" for a message from some CRAZY jumpers or worse yet from freeflyers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 April 8, 2004 Your situation gives those of us who take time to answer such queries a wee bit of a quandary. Ring sites are better than a wee spot on your goggles, but a ringsite will add to your risks. Its difficult to advise you to add to a level of risk when people feel you are already 'pushing the envelope'. Dave doesn't want to see you get hurt, and thats about the long and short of it. I'll post a possible middle ground solution back in Flicks and Pics.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kingcloud14000 0 #9 April 8, 2004 I have a sharp vl-z3u with a kenko .43 , it is a top mount due to seeing the jumper in al. die due to a malfunction and a cutaway wich resulted in riser hanging up on camera. so i mounted my cam on top of my bonehead. and again i am sorry to cause an uprore just was wanting to know if using the goggle target was as good as using a helment target. thanks again blue skies and bright night's Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #10 April 8, 2004 Jan Davis died when the lines entanged with her top mount camera and ring sight... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #11 April 8, 2004 Just to reinforce what Phreezone posted, from http://www.makeithappen.com/wis/bios/davisjan.html "Jan Davis was filming the last tandem out of the Otter at Lodi, CA. She experienced a malfunction, cutaway and the reserve entangled with her camera helmet. The tandem master saw her with a spinning malfunction and subsequent cutaway. He reported a 'pilot chute in tow' to impact. The reserve bridal had snagged under her front mounted still camera. She apparently worked on the problem all the way in. She had pulled all her handles. Freebag was out. Some reserve lines snagged the ring sight, and the freebag locking stows were still stowed. Impact was face down. Helmet was off. " -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 April 8, 2004 ***That said, Dave's response was way wrong, or rather his delivery of the message. Dave wants to have a positive impact on young fresh jumpers and sours them with a negative message. ---------------------------------------------- Your first point is your opinion, next time, state it as such. Second, you don't know me or what I want. My response adopted the tone of the post I was replying to. His first post was innocent engough, and I replied with a due amount of 'sugar". His reply to the response was a different matter, and I replied in kind. Study the issue you are commenting on before doing so, especially when taking it upon yourself to represent me, my views, or my ways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kingcloud14000 0 #13 April 8, 2004 in reply to all the info I thank you and will not add anymore hazzard's to my setup i will just keep the goggle spot. thanks again and dave i know now you only have my safety in mind and thank's again. sorry for the uprore. BLUE SKIES AND BRIGHT NIGHT'S Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #14 April 8, 2004 Quote***That said, Dave's response was way wrong, or rather his delivery of the message. Dave wants to have a positive impact on young fresh jumpers and sours them with a negative message. ---------------------------------------------- Your first point is your opinion, next time, state it as such. Second, you don't know me or what I want. Not intending to get too off-topic or anger anyone, but... Near any statement having to do with "wrong" or "right" is an opinion. It would be redundant to add a "just my opinion" disclaimer every time. The above is just my opinion. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #15 April 8, 2004 Second, you don't know me or what I want.Quote Yes, I assumed it was safety related but now I can only guess at your motives.Quote My response adopted the tone of the post I was replying to. His first post was innocent engough, and I replied with a due amount of 'sugar". His reply to the response was a different matter, and I replied in kind. Study the issue you are commenting on before doing so, especially when taking it upon yourself to represent me, my views, or my ways. I did study the issue on both threads. You never answered his technical question properly. You could have said nothing and acomplished the same. Then you warned him about arrogance and ignorance with the word ambulance thrown in. I don't represent you, know nothing of your views and your ways. I DO KNOW that a great many people look here for info, some ask, some lurk. I DO KNOW that many of them get turned off by responses like yours. The last two sentences are NOT my opinion but a FACT heard time and time again on the dropzone and through PMs. Be constructive in your replies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #16 April 8, 2004 Allow me to jump to dave's defence... If a lowtime jumper asks for camera advice, a response which tells him that it is innapropriate to jump camera at his level is entirely appropriate. If that jumper continues to argue that "he's special", or "he's different", or "he's extra-special-safe-plus-good", then a stern warning of the risks he's undertaking is also completely appropriate. It does not strike me as out of bounds to include thoughts of ambulance rides or worse. It *is* an appropriate response to a hundred jump wonder strapping on a video camera, just as it would be an appropriate response to a similarly under-skilled jumper strapping on a 79 square foot swoop monster. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites apoil 0 #17 April 8, 2004 Quotein reply to all the info I thank you and will not add anymore hazzard's to my setup i will just keep the goggle spot. thanks again and dave i know now you only have my safety in mind and thank's again. sorry for the uprore. BLUE SKIES AND BRIGHT NIGHT'S The fact that your spelling and punctuation is attrocious doesn't help you get your message across. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are neither stupid nor illiterate. What your message says about you is that you are thinking and typing about as fast as you can, and don't want to be slowed down enough to watch your formatting. This is consistent with what you got criticized for doing in the sport. Slow down. And by the way, an apostrophe doesn't mean "look out! here comes an s" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hondo 0 #18 April 8, 2004 I personally know Dave and have jumped with him several times. He is an excellent skydiver and videographer. Please listen to the advice of anyone who has been in the sport that long and has several thousand more jumps then you. Whether or not you agree with his response, or perceived lack of tact. ---------- I used to think skydiving would be cheaper then smoking crack! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #19 April 8, 2004 I know Andy, My friends and I where having this discussion on the DZ last weekend. There is a camera epidemic just like there is a canopy downsizing epidemic. There is a start in the right direction for more canopy training infrastructure but we are lagging behind in camera flying training outside of a few clinics here and there. Meanwhile we are seeing more and more jumpers flying cameras. Granted some are slim and simple systems but they still bring dangers with them. Its common for Jumpers with 200 jumps to be camera equipped. Some people have excellent resources in the form of legendary and talented camera flyers for camera flying advice on their DZ or in their clubs to help the fledglings. But others may only have this forum for help. You are not just helping the poster you may help a percentage of silent viewers. While, like it or not, 200 jumps & camera may be common, we can all agree 100 jumps is too few. We can all agree that a ring sight should be added later. Way later! And I know that if the poster had just been shot down in the original thread many more jumpers out there would not have learned all this and at least one person learned the harsh myth that a top mounted camera is not a safer system than a properly mounted side box. I have no doubt that Dave has a ton of camera advice to give, he's got more than me! I can't tell you what the original posters "attitude" is over this medium any more than I can tell what drives Dave. It was posted in a technical forum. Jumpers will be doing searches in that forum years from now looking for an answer to the same question all of them without attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kingcloud14000 0 #20 April 8, 2004 I have 181 jumps, what's the fuss about only 100 jumps? So give me a week and i will have your 200 jump requirement. And I will not look here for advice again, I get more constructive advice from my dz and jumpmasters where I have jumped before. Blue skies bright nights Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 April 8, 2004 Having read both threads, it appears to me that you could not get the response you wanted the first time some you tried in this forum. Bottom line, you do not have the experience that is generally considered necessary to start camera work and you do not have the experience and skills you think you have. This is not a flame, it is just a fact. Remember that the is a recreational activity, slow down and learn it well enough to enjoy it. No one is trying to keep from being all you can be, but it gets old fast putting young hot dogs in a bag. jmo SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiven4fun 0 #22 April 8, 2004 Putting a person down for the way they spell or there use of proper grammer, Is not helping anyone, Not everyone that skydives is a collage graduate, and no one deserves that kind of response. you can a make a point without trying to cut someone down.Still here after all these years Clayton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #23 April 8, 2004 QuoteNot everyone that skydives is a collage graduate, and no one deserves that kind of response. I won't comment on your grammar or spelling, but I will point out that people should be literate LONG before college. I'm pretty sure I'm as literate now as I was at 12 years old.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiven4fun 0 #24 April 8, 2004 The point I am trying to make is This, One of the things that I love so much about this sport is the people. There is no reason for anyone to cut someone down for the way they look, spell or how they fly, We should all do our very best to be helpful every chance we get. And there are ways to get your point across without taking shots at how a person spells. It's not like anyone could not understand what this person was trying to say.Still here after all these years Clayton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites USPA 0 #25 April 8, 2004 I think you mean, you get more advice you like...The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... 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AndyMan 7 #16 April 8, 2004 Allow me to jump to dave's defence... If a lowtime jumper asks for camera advice, a response which tells him that it is innapropriate to jump camera at his level is entirely appropriate. If that jumper continues to argue that "he's special", or "he's different", or "he's extra-special-safe-plus-good", then a stern warning of the risks he's undertaking is also completely appropriate. It does not strike me as out of bounds to include thoughts of ambulance rides or worse. It *is* an appropriate response to a hundred jump wonder strapping on a video camera, just as it would be an appropriate response to a similarly under-skilled jumper strapping on a 79 square foot swoop monster. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #17 April 8, 2004 Quotein reply to all the info I thank you and will not add anymore hazzard's to my setup i will just keep the goggle spot. thanks again and dave i know now you only have my safety in mind and thank's again. sorry for the uprore. BLUE SKIES AND BRIGHT NIGHT'S The fact that your spelling and punctuation is attrocious doesn't help you get your message across. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are neither stupid nor illiterate. What your message says about you is that you are thinking and typing about as fast as you can, and don't want to be slowed down enough to watch your formatting. This is consistent with what you got criticized for doing in the sport. Slow down. And by the way, an apostrophe doesn't mean "look out! here comes an s" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hondo 0 #18 April 8, 2004 I personally know Dave and have jumped with him several times. He is an excellent skydiver and videographer. Please listen to the advice of anyone who has been in the sport that long and has several thousand more jumps then you. Whether or not you agree with his response, or perceived lack of tact. ---------- I used to think skydiving would be cheaper then smoking crack! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #19 April 8, 2004 I know Andy, My friends and I where having this discussion on the DZ last weekend. There is a camera epidemic just like there is a canopy downsizing epidemic. There is a start in the right direction for more canopy training infrastructure but we are lagging behind in camera flying training outside of a few clinics here and there. Meanwhile we are seeing more and more jumpers flying cameras. Granted some are slim and simple systems but they still bring dangers with them. Its common for Jumpers with 200 jumps to be camera equipped. Some people have excellent resources in the form of legendary and talented camera flyers for camera flying advice on their DZ or in their clubs to help the fledglings. But others may only have this forum for help. You are not just helping the poster you may help a percentage of silent viewers. While, like it or not, 200 jumps & camera may be common, we can all agree 100 jumps is too few. We can all agree that a ring sight should be added later. Way later! And I know that if the poster had just been shot down in the original thread many more jumpers out there would not have learned all this and at least one person learned the harsh myth that a top mounted camera is not a safer system than a properly mounted side box. I have no doubt that Dave has a ton of camera advice to give, he's got more than me! I can't tell you what the original posters "attitude" is over this medium any more than I can tell what drives Dave. It was posted in a technical forum. Jumpers will be doing searches in that forum years from now looking for an answer to the same question all of them without attitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kingcloud14000 0 #20 April 8, 2004 I have 181 jumps, what's the fuss about only 100 jumps? So give me a week and i will have your 200 jump requirement. And I will not look here for advice again, I get more constructive advice from my dz and jumpmasters where I have jumped before. Blue skies bright nights Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 April 8, 2004 Having read both threads, it appears to me that you could not get the response you wanted the first time some you tried in this forum. Bottom line, you do not have the experience that is generally considered necessary to start camera work and you do not have the experience and skills you think you have. This is not a flame, it is just a fact. Remember that the is a recreational activity, slow down and learn it well enough to enjoy it. No one is trying to keep from being all you can be, but it gets old fast putting young hot dogs in a bag. jmo SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiven4fun 0 #22 April 8, 2004 Putting a person down for the way they spell or there use of proper grammer, Is not helping anyone, Not everyone that skydives is a collage graduate, and no one deserves that kind of response. you can a make a point without trying to cut someone down.Still here after all these years Clayton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #23 April 8, 2004 QuoteNot everyone that skydives is a collage graduate, and no one deserves that kind of response. I won't comment on your grammar or spelling, but I will point out that people should be literate LONG before college. I'm pretty sure I'm as literate now as I was at 12 years old.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiven4fun 0 #24 April 8, 2004 The point I am trying to make is This, One of the things that I love so much about this sport is the people. There is no reason for anyone to cut someone down for the way they look, spell or how they fly, We should all do our very best to be helpful every chance we get. And there are ways to get your point across without taking shots at how a person spells. It's not like anyone could not understand what this person was trying to say.Still here after all these years Clayton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #25 April 8, 2004 I think you mean, you get more advice you like...The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
