Front risers - how much strength

[benny 0]

Hi there... I was looking over my A license progression card and noticed that the requirement for front riser dives was waiverable if insufficient strength. How much strength does it take, and does that vary with wing loading? I'm 6'1" and about 150 lbs, so obviously not the strongest cat out there.... Am I going to be able to do the front risers, should I hit the gym, if so, what sort of excercises might I do to help with that? Thanks!

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

Hi Benny! You should hve no problem w/ front riser dives when you get there. If you can lift 20 pounds you should do fine.

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"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[kallend 2,027]

Depends on the canopy and the way it's trimmed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[benny 0]

higher loading = more strength? i think my student canopies are trimmed rather conservatively, would this make it harder to front riser dive?

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[elfanie 0]

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Hi Benny! You should hve no problem w/ front riser dives when you get there. If you can lift 20 pounds you should do fine.

However...it also depends on what canopy you're flying and your wingloading, does it not?

I tried the front risers on the Nav220 and they moved fine...but the canopy was still flying straight.
Tried to pull the front risers on the Sil 210 (edited: it was a 210, not a 190)...and I could do a chin-up, and those things aren't budging.

Finally could do front riser turns on a Sil190 that had front riser handles...but barely. (pulled the riser fine...but the canopy barely moved at all with it)

I actually had someone at the DZ call the BS card on me. "you pulled the front riser handle? And you moved the riser?"
Me: "Yeah..moved the it from here (above my head) to about here (near my ear or thereabouts)."
him: "And you're saying the canopy didn't turn?"
Me: "A tiny little bit..but hardly anything at all.."
Him: "Nope...can't be right...you're changing the entire dynamics of the canopy, it can't NOT turn...you either didn't pull the riser down or something..."

I did pull the riser...could even hear the wind on the canopy different (heard the rustling of the canopy change), and yet it didn't turn (but maybe 3-5*). I can't explain it, and haven't jumped that canopy again to re-try it again..I just know what happened.

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Shark 0]

First off, why don't you just try it up high on the student canopy you are comfortable with? Have you discussed this with your instructors?

[AggieDave 6]

There's more to that then just strength. A lot of student canopies are hard to front riser, simply due to a lack of dive loops. Thus you have to reach up the riser, grap the riser and pull the riser, making it a much harder thing to do.

There are tricks around that, for instance, if you are able to grab the very top of the riser, then that gives you something to grip.

I bet you can do it, just this past weekend I was pulling down the front risers on a tandem (w/o dive loops) so I could get a little penitration in the wind (@ 2k).

Just talk to your instructors, they'll help you out with all of this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[benny 0]

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First off, why don't you just try it up high on the student canopy you are comfortable with? Have you discussed this with your instructors?

Not yet discussed, planned on asking about it on my next jump (hopefully Sunday)... what should I expect to happen if I'm successful with this maneuver?

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[atsaubrey 0]

i have been jumping a PD 340 9 cell and my last jump i did the things on my yell card. I will say it was a bitch to get them down but once i did it did turn but slowly. And im no weenie guy either, i can rep the full stack of weights on a lat machine. I wouldnt worry about it though..just give it a try youll pass anyway.

"GOT LEAD?"

[dragon2 2]

When I first got my Spectre 150 I thought I couldn't do it. I pulled on the FR a bit and couldn't hold it. But there's tricks: quick full brakes then full FR makes it much easier to get one or 2 FR down. Also if you don't have diveloops, don't just grab and pull down but grab the riser with your hand upside down then twist your hand to thumb-up (does that make sense?). I could even FR an old Manta 288 (WL 0.5 or so) this way (jump # 300, SL for fun) although the whole front of the canopy went mushy so I left well enough alone and hung out there for a loooong time

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[FrogNog 1]

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I actually had someone at the DZ call the BS card on me. "you pulled the front riser handle? And you moved the riser?"
Me: "Yeah..moved the it from here (above my head) to about here (near my ear or thereabouts)."
him: "And you're saying the canopy didn't turn?"
Me: "A tiny little bit..but hardly anything at all.."
Him: "Nope...can't be right...you're changing the entire dynamics of the canopy, it can't NOT turn...you either didn't pull the riser down or something..."

This mirrors my experience with my student canopy, the Skymaster 290. I could pull the riser about 8 inches and next to nothing would happen. Finally when I hauled one in like a foot or a foot and a half, I would get a slow turn. I didn't have a stopwatch in my other hand, but it felt like 10 seconds to make a 180 heading change.

In my not very experienced experience, the student canopies are huge, stable skybarges that don't want to turn fast unless you make them.

I believe also that front riser turns can behave differently depending on how quickly you go from no riser pull to riser pulled in. That is, if you pull in very gently and slowly, you can get much less turning than if you pull it in quickly.

So try pulling the front riser in further, quicker. You can always let it out again later.
(And remember, do all this way up high, etc. etc.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[dragon2 2]

What is it that you have to do exactly anyway? Over here you need a full 360 left then 360 right, and 3 (!) 360's one way then 3 the other.... This is for your B. I'm not sure I could do that (didn't have to, had my B already when they came up with this)... Of course it doesn't say how BIG/SMALL the 360's have to be.... But MAN, 6 360's on your FR??

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[benny 0]

I think the A card says a "front riser dive"

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

opps! My bad. I was thinking how easy it is on my 170 w/dive loops. Make certain you talk this over w/ your instructors 1st. Get comfortable flying the canopy, you have plenty of things to learn about flight & traffic before you need to have this signed off.

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"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[benny 0]

I know I've got time before I need to have it signed, I was just curious and a little anxious I suppose to develop my canopy skills. It seems like that's the part of the dive that I'm best at right now anyway. I'm heading to the tunnel tomorrow to work on some freefall. So far my CC has been money, although I'm told by my JMs that I am now doomed having stood up every landing only about 5 ft off the x at most. I think I'll also ask if they could maintain radio silence next time unless the see me screwing myself.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[kallend 2,027]

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higher loading = more strength? i think my student canopies are trimmed rather conservatively, would this make it harder to front riser dive?

In straight flight the sum of the loads on the 4 risers must be equal to your weight (Newton's 3rd Law). In a turn, the sum of the loads must be equal to your weight x (any Gs you are pulling).

Front riser force doesn't really depend on the size of the canopy, but it does depend on how the load is distributed between front and rear, and that is a canopy design and trim issue. My Stiletto 150 has very light rear risers and, as a result, heavy front riser forces. Doing a front riser dive on a straight in approach is like doing a chin-up. My Stiletto 135 is more evenly balanced between front and rear. Both were (according to the rigger who checked) in trim.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[benny 0]

ok, correct me please if I misunderstand here, does heavier front risers mean it's more difficult to perform a front riser dive? btw, it's great having a physicist around when ya need one!

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[hookitt 1]

You understand correctly.

Don't think too much about it, just grab the front risers and pull them down pretty much as hard as you can. Hold it until you can't hold it any more. You'll be doing this maneuvres at altitude rather than near the ground.

What to expect: The canopy will speed up and descend quicker.

Hope that helps.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[bch7773 0]

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make sense?). I could even FR an old Manta 288 (WL 0.5 or so) this way (jump # 300, SL for fun) although the whole front of the canopy went mushy so I left well enough alone and hung out there for a loooong time

I know what you are talking about... I've tried front risering on a manta, and its just really... sad.

has anybody tried to front riser a triathalon? I've tried it (im loading it at ~1.3) and it barely makes it go faster. not to mention, the risers don't move from their orginal spot.... when I finally do a pullup on them, the risers come down, but so does the nose... it folds in on itself... kinda freaky. any thoughts?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[FrogNog 1]

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make sense?). I could even FR an old Manta 288 (WL 0.5 or so) this way (jump # 300, SL for fun) although the whole front of the canopy went mushy so I left well enough alone and hung out there for a loooong time

I know what you are talking about... I've tried front risering on a manta, and its just really... sad.

has anybody tried to front riser a triathalon? I've tried it (im loading it at ~1.3) and it barely makes it go faster. not to mention, the risers don't move from their orginal spot.... when I finally do a pullup on them, the risers come down, but so does the nose... it folds in on itself... kinda freaky. any thoughts?

I've done it on a Triathlon 190. My advice is to pull harder.
I hope "folds in on itself" is more dire than what's really happening. When you do manage to pull down a front riser, what you're doing is deforming the canopy by putting more weight on all the lines attached to that riser, and as a result putting less weight on all the lines attached to the other risers. Pulling down on one front riser tends to make the canopy bend downward on that side; I presume this lowers the angle of attack of that side compared to the other side, and the result is the canopy rolls toward that side until equilibrium is reached in a turn.

But I don't know the components of that equilibrium. Suffice it to say at some point the canopy should stop rolling so you don't end up above it.

If you're doing both front risers, I've done that too and I find it does increase speed noticeably like it's supposed to. If you aren't impressed with what you have, my advice is again to pull harder.

BTW, all my "I've done that" is like "five times" because I have <60 jumps total. So you really shouldn't listen to me.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Tonto 1]

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My Stiletto 150 has very light rear risers and, as a result, heavy front riser forces.

Really? I jump a Stiletto 107 loaded to 1.8, and my front riser turn to swoops are one finger only. Canopy is in trim, 30 jumps after reline.

Does airspeed increase forces, or is it the g's increasing the riser pressure in a turn?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[darkwing 5]

It depends on the canopy and on the suspended weight. Also, the tension in the riser depends on how far down you pull it. On my spectre the tension decreases dramatically if pulled down more than about 4 cm.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[rigging65 0]

A good trick to help with learning front riser dives is to think about pulling yourself up to the riser(s) instead of pulling the riser(s) down to you.

This results in you using more muscles in your back and other muscles in your arms instead of just using your biceps. Try it, it helps!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[riddler 0]

Don't take the strength issue personally
Make sure you "play" above 2,000 feet.

If you have trouble, here's a trick you can try - go to deep brakes and let the canopy slow down considerably, but not quite stall. Let up fast on the brakes and grab the front risers and pull. They should be easier to pull down at this slower speed and less AOA. Like butta
Don't dive lower than 2,000 feet AGL. If you get to 2,000, let up and go back to conservative flight. This is only for safety. You can practice more on the next jump.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[kallend 2,027]

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My Stiletto 150 has very light rear risers and, as a result, heavy front riser forces.

Really? I jump a Stiletto 107 loaded to 1.8, and my front riser turn to swoops are one finger only. Canopy is in trim, 30 jumps after reline.

Does airspeed increase forces, or is it the g's increasing the riser pressure in a turn?

t

Really, and as I mentioned, my Stiletto135 has much lighter forces.

But regardless, Newton's laws dictate that the vector sum of all the riser forces equals your weight x (Gs you are pulling), so light forces on fronts equates to heavier forces on rears, and vice versa.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.