Training on Ellipticals

[velo90 0]

I picked this up from RevJim in another thread...

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Like the fact that you were traing at SDC, on Ellipticals

Can someone please expalin what the above statement actually means.
1. Do the students make their first jump on ellipticals?
2. What wing load do they start on?
3. Are they always Stiletto's?
4. Most importantly, what is the reasoning being it.

This is a genuine request for more info. If you do not want to post it here please PM me.
If there is a link to another thread that has already discussed this topic, the moderator can post the link and lock the thread.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

Sabres (square), then Safire2's (trailing edge tapered/lightly elliptical), and now Sabre2's(trailing edge tapered/lightly elliptical, I believe.

It is do-able with the right program, i.e. 3 learning tandems first where the student has an altimeter, does free-fall manuevers, and flys the canopy while the TDM-I teaches themhow to fly the canopy. A tandem can be a flying class room and can be a very effective way to teach canopy control.

Then lightly loaded ZP square or semi-eliptical canopies. It can work very well.

Derek

[velo90 0]

Thanks for the reply.
So if I understand correctly, the first jump is not made on an elliptical, but on a square. So what is the decision criteria for a change to semi- elliptical and then later to a full elliptical.
Also why do the students start on a Sabre when there are more docile canopies that they can start on.
I do not want to start a discussion on the wrongs or rights. However, someone must have had some reasoning as why the students should go this way. It's the reasoning I am after.

Dave

[Tonto 1]

The reasoning - to me at least - follows the same line as the "Why ripcord and convert to BOC? Why not BOC?"

We don't stay on Student canopies. We progress. So why not learn to use those canopies while we're learning everything else.

People shoot arrows at pioneers. AFF was considdered lunatic fringe 25 years ago. On canopies alone I've seen this debate on several fronts over the years like -

1. 500 round jumps before you can jump a square
2. Square parachutes are no good for 1st jumpers
3. Round reserves vs. square reserves
4. Five cell vs. 7 cell
5. 7 cell vs. 9 cell

We've passed all those points, and now we accept you can jump a square first, have a square reserve and most people jump 9 cells. In the future we may see 9 cell vs. xbraced. People are learning faster than they were, and are killing themselves in different ways. We'll need to address those risks in a variety of ways (canopy courses, training 1st jumpers on faster canopies etc) before a trend develops which will be proven less flawed than others. It's true evolution - but its happening very fast.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[velo90 0]

First off just to be clear, this is definately not about shooting arrows nor do I have an axe to grind.

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The reasoning - to me at least - follows the same line as the "Why ripcord and convert to BOC? Why not BOC?"

We don't stay on Student canopies. We progress. So why not learn to use those canopies while we're learning everything else.

The only problem I have with this reasoning is that I know a number of people with more than a 1000 jumps that do not jump ellipticals.

I would expect that a bit more thought went into the decision than "They are going to jump them anyway lets start them as early as possible on them."

Dave

[phoenixlpr 0]

I dont get it.

I was told that ellipticals are performing better with higher WLs. Students have WL limits/recommendations. So what is the benefit on traning with ellipticals loaded <0.9-1.1?

[fudd 0]

So at a 0.9 WL will a Sabre2 outperform a Stilletto???
I know there is a lot of people here having a lot of experience on both heavyly loaded elipticals and/or very lightly loaded squares.

Has anybody actually flown an eliptical at a 0.8 or 0.9 WL???

I've heard recomandation that when going eliptical, don't resize.
150 saber2 -> Stilletto 150
roughly equals
150 sabre2 -> 135 sabre2

Following that logic, could we put a student with a 200 pound exit weight on a Stiletto 280 rather than a Navigator 240. ( well, maybe there is a reason why Stilletto 280's are hard to come by )

As usual I don't have a clue about what I'm talking about. This is just qustions, not answers.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Panform is one thing, trim is counts too.

What is and advantage of Stiletto280 over Nav240?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Thanks for the reply.
So if I understand correctly, the first jump is not made on an elliptical, but on a square.

No, the first 3 jumps are made with a tandem Instructor with a tandem rig.

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So what is the decision criteria for a change to semi- elliptical and then later to a full elliptical.

I don't understand your question.

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Also why do the students start on a Sabre when there are more docile canopies that they can start on.

ZP has many advantages over F-111. A better flare is the biggest advantage. I have seen students flare late or early and still get a nice landing out of a ZP canopy when a F-111 canopy would have resulted in a PLF or hard landing.

Also, learning on a ZP canopy will under the supervision and training of an Instructor instead of on your own after being cleared to self-jumpmaster sets the student up for success.

There is more risk to the student if the learn on 288 sq ft F-111 7-cell canopies and then transition to a 190-ish sq ft ZP 9-cell canopy with the benefit of an Instructor watching and teaching. The risk to the DZ is initially lower because it is hard to get hurt under a 288 sq ft F-111 7-cell.

Same thing for SOS, it is easier to train a student for SOS and easier for the to use, but the student pays for that initial less risk later with the higher risk of transitioning to a 2-handle system later.

Edit: I don't know of any DZ that uses fully elliptical, high performance canopies for students.

Derek

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I dont get it.

I was told that ellipticals are performing better with higher WLs. Students have WL limits/recommendations. So what is the benefit on traning with ellipticals loaded <0.9-1.1?

Control sensitivity. Under a less responsive canopy, you can burry a toggle and not have much happen. Doing the same close to the ground under the canopies people jump off student status is not always survivable.

Getting out of the big movement habbit before it becomes muscle memory may help the low turn fatalities among the "not a hook turn type person" crowd.

[marks 0]

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I dont get it.

I was told that ellipticals are performing better with higher WLs. Students have WL limits/recommendations. So what is the benefit on traning with ellipticals loaded <0.9-1.1?

Control sensitivity. Under a less responsive canopy, you can burry a toggle and not have much happen. Doing the same close to the ground under the canopies people jump off student status is not always survivable.

Getting out of the big movement habbit before it becomes muscle memory may help the low turn fatalities among the "not a hook turn type person" crowd.

well then you do have to think about how that big movement habit you speak of was created.... wouldnt it be easier to not create that habbit then to try and break it?

[velo90 0]

I apologise if I put things in the wrong perpective ...
but

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From me :
1. Do the students make their first jump on ellipticals?
2. What wing load do they start on?
3. Are they always Stiletto's?
4. Most importantly, what is the reasoning being it.

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From HookanSwoop :
Sabres (square), then Safire2's (trailing edge tapered/lightly elliptical), and now Sabre2's(trailing edge tapered/lightly elliptical, I believe.

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From me :
So if I understand correctly, the first jump is not made on an elliptical, but on a square. So what is the decision criteria for a change to semi- elliptical and then later to a full elliptical.

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From HookanSwoop :
I don't understand your question.

So again...
At some point (after 3 Tandems) they land their canopy themselves for the first time. What type of canopy is this?
If it is not an elliptical then what is it?
And then what is the decision criteria to go on to an elliptical?

And again I am not criticising! I am after the thinking behind a program that brings students onto ellipticals so quickly.

Dave

[PhreeZone 20]

Students are not brought to "ellipticals" right away. Their first jump where they land the canopy for them self would be on a semi-elliptical canopy at a light loading. They progress through the student program in about 20 jumps instead of the typical 7 AFF jumps. They recieve canopy coaching on all 20 of these jumps. At the end of the student program they have worked themselves to about a 1:1 wingloading on a semelliptical canopy. while recieving canopy advice and coaching the entire time. Sounds a lot safer then just releasing students from things like Manta's to go buy their first rig and have to downsize rapidly and uncoached to get to the 1:1 loading that people tell them to jump.

Look at Skydive Chicagos's website for details since they popularized the program.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[marks 0]

i would think part of your answer would be. to not create habbits under a severly underloaded canopy. that they would soon have to break.... but that doesnt really answer the question about ellipticals...

i personally cant see any problem with putting a student under a more " efficient " wing.

[skyyhi 0]

I am a student and taking AFF at Elsinore. . .I really don't have enough experience with this topic to answer constructively, but I will say one thing that I think would help students such as myself.

I started student training at 167 lbs (or 197 out the door with student gear weighing in at 30 lbs - a telesis rig with a Nav 260 canopy). I am now 140 (exit weight now 170 on the same Nav 260). This canopy is big, bulky and very hard for me to get into a complete flare. . .even with the toggles all the way into my crotch.

Student B weighs 195. . .he gets put on the same telesis rig and Nav 260 canopy. His wingloading is quite obviously higher than mine but he has no trouble flaring the canopy because he is bigger and stronger so the canopy is more responsive to him than it is to me because he has a heavier wingloading.

Skip to graduating with the A license. . .I don't downsize quickly because I am still having trouble with the large size student rigs. . .too hard to get a good landing. My instructors recommend me staying on the larger rigs till my landings are better - thus, slowing any possible progression and possibly making her leave the sport in discouragment.

Student B, who has been able to get a better response out of the student rigs because of a better wingloading, downsizes much more rapidly because his confidence has grown from his training experience, he buys an elliptical, takes it in for a few landings and doesn't bother to get coaching. . .he gets hurt or worse, gets dead. . .

Maybe they should have been trained on semi's or gotten more canopy coaching during AFF. . .

And for my instructors who might be reading this post. . .I am NOT referring to me. You all have been the best. This is just hypothetical since I don't have ANY experience with elliptical, semi-elliptical, etc. . .I am very happy with the BOAT that I fly because I am not confident in my landing abilities yet. . .Sorry this is so long. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[kallend 2,027]

As a former student at SDChicago (and now a regular jumper there) I think I can clarify.

First jumps are tandems, with the student doing freefall maneuvers, practice handle touches, deploying at 5,500ft, and flying the canopy. Student is not just a passenger.

From about 1993 - 1998 the first non-tandem jump was on a Sabre. Mine was a 190 (I weigh 150 in street clothes, about 175 - 180 out the door). After 3 jumps I went to a 170, and after 12 or 13 I went to a Sabre 150.

1999-2001 they used Safires

2002 - current they use Sabre IIs.

All rigs are Javelins.

The instructor evaluates student canopy skills, and downsizes if appropriate and the student wants to.

The point? I didn't learn anything I had to unlearn later.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[cloud9 0]

I think this just keeps going back to the same issue, not understanding what an elliptical canopy is.
Sabre 2, Safire 2, Hornet, cobalt, stiletto, crossfire, and many others are all elliptical. The fact is some of the so called semi ellipticals are more elliptical then the so called full ellipticals. For example the Safire 2 is more elliptical then a stiletto, the stiletto is a more aggressive design but it is not more elliptical. Where do I get this information. Go to Aerodyne web site and read what they say on the subject in their planform factor. They are trying to educate skydivers but for some reason we seem to have preconceived notions that are hard to overcome.

[kallend 2,027]

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I think this just keeps going back to the same issue, not understanding what an elliptical canopy is.
Sabre 2, Safire 2, Hornet, cobalt, stiletto, crossfire, and many others are all elliptical. The fact is some of the so called semi ellipticals are more elliptical then the so called full ellipticals. For example the Safire 2 is more elliptical then a stiletto, the stiletto is a more aggressive design but it is not more elliptical. Where do I get this information. Go to Aerodyne web site and read what they say on the subject in their planform factor. They are trying to educate skydivers but for some reason we seem to have preconceived notions that are hard to overcome.

I guess I don't understand this. An ellipse is a well defined mathematical curve. A canopy is either elliptical (or a reasonable approximation thereto) or it isn't.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sducoach 0]

Well professor go figure.......

Elliptical is not alwayw elliptical. We have leading edge slightly ellip, trailing edge slightly ellip, we have both slightly ellip. and we have ellipticals.

Round, square, leading edge, trailing edge, or ellip. they all have different flying characteristics. Add seven cell and nine cell and you expand the options.

Wing loading equals speed not performance. Performance is a perspective, not a function of the canopy.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[riggerrob 643]

"Elliptical" is such an over-used word these days.

"Elliptical" canopies - specifically designed for students (P.D. Navigator http://www.performancedesigns.com/navigator.htm

and Icarus Student ZP-7

http://www.icaruscanopies.com/canopies/StudentZP7/index.htm)

- have been used successfully by first jump students for years now.
What is the fuss?
These canopies have carefully de-tuned steering lines that produce light toggle pressures, gentle turns and foregiving flares.
When designing student canopies, line configuration is far more important than planform (aka. ellipticallitiness).

[VectorBoy 0]

I guess I don't understand this. An ellipse is a well defined mathematical curve. A canopy is either elliptical (or a reasonable approximation thereto) or it isn't.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

How about this right from PD's FAQ on their web page:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/faq.htm#5

What is the difference between a tapered, elliptical, or semi elliptical canopy?

These terms refer to the shape of the wing when viewed from above. Any canopy that is not rectangular can be called either semi-elliptical or tapered. The amount of taper affects the canopy handling and performance, though in combination with several other parameters.

While the term elliptical is often used to describe some canopies, no skydiving canopies are truly elliptical. The curve in a canopy is approximated by a series of straight-line segments, and they do not form a true ellipse. What we are really dealing with here is the relative degree of taper from one canopy to another. This involves not only how much taper there is, but where it is located. Some canopies are more tapered than others, regardless of whether they are called "elliptical" or "semi-elliptical.”

PD prefers to use the word "tapered” for several reasons. As soon as skydivers began using the word “elliptical,” many people created the idea that every "elliptical" canopy will have certain specific characteristics, some good and some bad. In reality, a non-rectangular canopy may not have any of those characteristics. We like the term “tapered” because it simply means “not rectangular,” while the term “elliptical” implies certain things about a canopy that may or may not be true.

Rather than the actual shape of a wing, most jumpers are really interested in performance characteristics: how does the canopy open, fly and land? These characteristics are influenced by taper, but not totally dictated by it. The degree of taper is part of a whole package. Airfoil, aspect ratio and trim angle are also very important. Wing loading, or body weight compared to canopy size, is actually the main factor that determines canopy speed. The degree of taper generally influences the responsiveness of a canopy, though other variables come into play. This is why it is not necessary for a jumper to know exactly how tapered or “elliptical” a particular canopy is. The proof is in the performance, and in the handling.

Therefore, it is best to read descriptions of the various canopies, and try demos of those that might suit your needs. Dealing with all the different terminology used can be confusing. Just remember that this terminology is often just one company's choice of packaging, rather than actually describing something different or new. Every company wants their products to be viewed as different from another. These types of word plays are one way to achieve that. In the end, the canopy’s performance in the air is what really matters.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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As a former student at SDChicago (and now a regular jumper there) I think I can clarify.

Ditto

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First jumps are tandems, with the student doing freefall maneuvers, practice handle touches, deploying at 5,500ft, and flying the canopy. Student is not just a passenger.

At the last tandem meeting I went to this was discussed: students do the practice touches, turns, etc on the first tandem. On the second tandem, the focus is on relaxing, arching, body awarness and pulling. Generally turns are not done on the second tandem so the student can gain confidence that they can relax while in freefall.

Canopy control, finding the airport, and landing procedures are included in both tandems. All students help with turns, flaring, etc. On second tandems, they are encouraged to steer the canopy to find the airport. This way a student doesn't feel so scared and isolated on their first AFP jump or under canopy.

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From about 1993 - 1998 the first non-tandem jump was on a Sabre. Mine was a 190 (I weigh 150 in street clothes, about 175 - 180 out the door). After 3 jumps I went to a 170, and after 12 or 13 I went to a Sabre 150.

1999-2001 they used Safires

2002 - current they use Sabre IIs.

I started on a Safire 230, moved up to the Safire 260 when I had some landing issues, then moved down to the 230, 210 and eventually the 190 Safire on my last student jump and first rentals. I purchased a Sabre 230 as my first canopy since I had a hard time finding a rig that would fit a 190 at the time. I jumped a Stiletto 190 by jump 89 and owned one by jump 95, I've been under a Stiletto pretty much every jump since. Oh yea, all jumps were done via BOC on the training program.

While I was at Quincy 99 someone told me Roger would kill me because I was using BOC and a Safire during my student jumps. Funny thing is, Roger went to his DZ a few months later and helped convert his student program over to AFP, BOC and tapered canopies.

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All rigs are Javelins.

We now have one Student Mirage we are testing out.

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The point? I didn't learn anything I had to unlearn later.

Ditto. And I was glad to have that muscle memory on my first malfunction.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,006]

>So at a 0.9 WL will a Sabre2 outperform a Stilletto???

Like asking "Will a 767 outperform a Gulfstream 5?" Depends on what "performance" means to you. The Stiletto will have a flatter glide and a slightly more powerful flare; the S2 will feel more stable and have better openings.

>Has anybody actually flown an eliptical at a 0.8 or 0.9 WL???

I jumped a Stiletto 190 at about .9 to 1 and it felt unstable to me at that loading. Not as bad as a Nova, but not very solid.

>Following that logic, could we put a student with a 200 pound exit
>weight on a Stiletto 280 rather than a Navigator 240.

A Stiletto at that weight would open poorly and not do well in turbulence.

[skycat 0]

I would call a lightly loaded Stiletto breathy but it had a nice flare, on the other hand I jumped a samauri at a fairly light loading and if was quite well behaved. From what I have found though on the light end of the scale for "Fully Ellipticals" (crossfire, stiletto, cobalt, samauri) you really don't want to load them less than 1.1 or 1.2:1.

Fly it like you stole it!