billvon 2,991
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Just to say thanks for some of the messages and phone calls I've received the last few days following my cutaway Sunday p.m. Its nice to put that event behind me, and good to hear some kind words of support. Thanks as well to all at the DZ who were kind enough to search for the jumper and the gear. As I'd mentioned, the gear had already been found when I posted the thread, and it's certainly proved to be an interesting and informative discussion, with a wide range of viewpoints.
Must comment, however, on some character assaults that surfaced in the thread, one person to whom I've already responded, the other who posted that I had "a history of losing altitude awareness and pulling lower than expected". Kindly provide the source of your misinformation. My logbook shows a single opening at 2800, also the result of a hard pull, and, except for a couple training tandems, I have NEVER lost altitude awareness. Perhaps you should think before posting garbage like that, and I don't know what your personal agenda or vendetta might be, but in my book, this is libel. Secondly, I was already walking back because it was getting dark. I was not annoyed it took "so long to find" me, and this remark is taken totally out of context.
Statements made in this manner are malicious, and circulating them ruins a jumper's reputation both from a personal and an ability standpoint. Having a cutaway is stressful enough, being the vicitm of a character attack is worse. Let's be more heads up and look at both sides of a situation before jumping to conclusions.
Must comment, however, on some character assaults that surfaced in the thread, one person to whom I've already responded, the other who posted that I had "a history of losing altitude awareness and pulling lower than expected". Kindly provide the source of your misinformation. My logbook shows a single opening at 2800, also the result of a hard pull, and, except for a couple training tandems, I have NEVER lost altitude awareness. Perhaps you should think before posting garbage like that, and I don't know what your personal agenda or vendetta might be, but in my book, this is libel. Secondly, I was already walking back because it was getting dark. I was not annoyed it took "so long to find" me, and this remark is taken totally out of context.
Statements made in this manner are malicious, and circulating them ruins a jumper's reputation both from a personal and an ability standpoint. Having a cutaway is stressful enough, being the vicitm of a character attack is worse. Let's be more heads up and look at both sides of a situation before jumping to conclusions.
QuoteQuote
QuoteThat is the thing. A packers job is to pack the canopy. That is what he does. He is not responsible if it doesn't open. Plan and simple. You are paying for a pack job not an opening.
Sorry but I don't buy that. It is like saying you pay a roofer to put shingles up not to guarantee the roof is water tight. Getting the roof water tight is part of the job. The canopy opening is part of the pack job.
I am a packer. if your pilot chute is defective, am I supposed to still be responsible, or not get paid for the pack job I did? what if your canopy is out of trim? am I responsible? you pay me to pack the canopy, not to do a full inspection. or maybe I could get people to pay for a full inspection every jump. $20 pack jobs? I could live with that.
Note the subject of the thread, "... rented gear." In my opinion condition of the gear is the DZO's responsibility. Yes I should go over it to look for obvious issues but I don't know how many jumps are on it so normal maintenance is their issue.
If during the pack job you notice unsafe gear you should bring it to the attention of the owner of the gear, DZO (rented) or jumper (personal), and if you are really concerned about it refuse to pack it.
Those $20.00 pack jobs would probably loose you money unless you can safely inspect and pack one rig in the time it takes to do five now.
"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes
QuoteNote the subject of the thread, "... rented gear."
IMHO I would think that as with all things you can rent, there ought to be an option for insurance and a liability waiver. In this case it sounds as though the person renting the gear signed a piece of paper that rendered him liable for the cost of replacement. However I wouldn't pay for new gear. I would offer them a settlement to compensate them for used gear that is valued as such. Otherwise sue me. A court of law is not goin to award the DZO the price of new gear.
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."
I always wondered what the policy was myself when I was renting... I guess I was too stupid to ask. Glad nothing happed to the gear.
The way I see it though, Skydiving comes with risks of malfunctions...even if everything was checked and the gear was packed perfect. Shit Happens. I don't think it should be the jumpers responsability to pay for a canopy lost if he rented gear from a DZ and the DZ packed it.
Eample: I just finished up skydiving school and got DZ approval to jump on my own, but don't yet have my licence. I rent gear, they pack it. Anyway, I have a mal and have to chop. Remember I only have about 14 jumps.
I am scared shitless because I had my first chop at #14, my main concern is landing safely and not dying.... I am definately not going to follow my main and land off.
Then I get on the ground and I am told I owe them 2K. No way..... I walk right there.
I agree with some people here that if you pack it, you are responsible, but i disagree that everyone is responsible no matter what even if the DZ packs it. Unless you can show the jumper did something stupid.
I can tell you I would neverr continued skydiving in the beginning if I thought I would have to pay for the overpriced used gear if something happened. Those costs need to be included in the price of the rental.
My $0.02
Chris
-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
The way I see it though, Skydiving comes with risks of malfunctions...even if everything was checked and the gear was packed perfect. Shit Happens. I don't think it should be the jumpers responsability to pay for a canopy lost if he rented gear from a DZ and the DZ packed it.
Eample: I just finished up skydiving school and got DZ approval to jump on my own, but don't yet have my licence. I rent gear, they pack it. Anyway, I have a mal and have to chop. Remember I only have about 14 jumps.
I am scared shitless because I had my first chop at #14, my main concern is landing safely and not dying.... I am definately not going to follow my main and land off.
Then I get on the ground and I am told I owe them 2K. No way..... I walk right there.
I agree with some people here that if you pack it, you are responsible, but i disagree that everyone is responsible no matter what even if the DZ packs it. Unless you can show the jumper did something stupid.
I can tell you I would neverr continued skydiving in the beginning if I thought I would have to pay for the overpriced used gear if something happened. Those costs need to be included in the price of the rental.
My $0.02
Chris
-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
QuoteNo packer anywhere, not even riggers packing reserves, guarentees that the canopy will open. There are packers that sometimes pay for a reserve repack when their main pack is cutaway - but that is not the norm.
There used to be a pretty famous (or infamous) "Licensed Rigger" / packer at Perris named "Dead Ted". He guarenteed double your money back if you bounce.
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."
- When I am under a fully opened canopy at 3,000ft and a jumper who announced he/she is pulling at 4,500 feet is whizzing past me in freefall I call that loss of altitude awareness and a mistake.
- When I see it happen a second, third and fourth time I consider it a problem. When I hear the same concerns from other skydivers about the same person I consider it a chronic problem.
- When there are more AFF graduates than there are rental rigs and I observe a jumper strategically moving gear to places where it can't be easily found I find that inconsiderate. Last summer I frequently observed one jumper making many jumps in a day on rental gear (sometimes back-to-back loads) while others shared gear and got to only make one jump per day. To me, that is a very inconsiderate jumper. In my book, it is exactly this type of behavior and sense of entitlement that led up to the events of the other night.
-When I observe a jumper being rude and even abusive to a staff of packers because it is taking too long to pack his/her rig, I find again, that jumper to be inconsiderate. These packers are busy packing chutes for tandems, videographers and other jumpers that were in line first. This selfish behavior was frequently tolerated and just considered a personality quirk.
-When a jumper doesn't want to jump his/her new gear (despite the fact that they've already jumped nearly identical gear and the same sized chute many times in the past) because "the risers and toggles are in different places on different parachutes" I feel this is a jumper that perhaps may not have a clue.
- When I observe many jumpers stay on the ground to avoid being in the air with a specific jumper, that tells me said jumper is not safe. Lets compound that with jumpers who will no longer jump at the DZ because of a specific jumper. This is a clear indication that there is a jumper who is not conscientious.
-When I am told about a jumper that needs to be held back in the plane because he/she is not giving any separation between exits, I can't help but feel concerned. Especially when this jumper has opened frighteningly close to me on more than one occasion without ever realizing it.
-Shall I go on? I'm glad this jumper was not hurt in any way. I was the first out to look for this individual and can't even describe the terror I felt when this jumper could not immediately be found.
- Throughout this thread there have been many posts from very experienced skydivers who have all said the same things. Many have been around this jumper for a year. Perhaps there is truth in what is being said. Perhaps this jumper should pay attention.
From what I understand, the equipment was recovered and there is no evidence of a bag lock.
Hey, we all make mistakes. Lord knows, I've made my fair share. What concerns me, is this jumper's constant and complete lack of awareness. Skydiving is a risk, but lets keep it to a minimum.
I am in no way attacking this person. I have no vendetta. I'm merely stating my observations and my experiences. If anything has been done to damage this jumper's reputation, it has been the work of that jumper.
I'm done with this thread. If this jumper wishes to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me or speak to me in person.
- When I see it happen a second, third and fourth time I consider it a problem. When I hear the same concerns from other skydivers about the same person I consider it a chronic problem.
- When there are more AFF graduates than there are rental rigs and I observe a jumper strategically moving gear to places where it can't be easily found I find that inconsiderate. Last summer I frequently observed one jumper making many jumps in a day on rental gear (sometimes back-to-back loads) while others shared gear and got to only make one jump per day. To me, that is a very inconsiderate jumper. In my book, it is exactly this type of behavior and sense of entitlement that led up to the events of the other night.
-When I observe a jumper being rude and even abusive to a staff of packers because it is taking too long to pack his/her rig, I find again, that jumper to be inconsiderate. These packers are busy packing chutes for tandems, videographers and other jumpers that were in line first. This selfish behavior was frequently tolerated and just considered a personality quirk.
-When a jumper doesn't want to jump his/her new gear (despite the fact that they've already jumped nearly identical gear and the same sized chute many times in the past) because "the risers and toggles are in different places on different parachutes" I feel this is a jumper that perhaps may not have a clue.
- When I observe many jumpers stay on the ground to avoid being in the air with a specific jumper, that tells me said jumper is not safe. Lets compound that with jumpers who will no longer jump at the DZ because of a specific jumper. This is a clear indication that there is a jumper who is not conscientious.
-When I am told about a jumper that needs to be held back in the plane because he/she is not giving any separation between exits, I can't help but feel concerned. Especially when this jumper has opened frighteningly close to me on more than one occasion without ever realizing it.
-Shall I go on? I'm glad this jumper was not hurt in any way. I was the first out to look for this individual and can't even describe the terror I felt when this jumper could not immediately be found.
- Throughout this thread there have been many posts from very experienced skydivers who have all said the same things. Many have been around this jumper for a year. Perhaps there is truth in what is being said. Perhaps this jumper should pay attention.
From what I understand, the equipment was recovered and there is no evidence of a bag lock.
Hey, we all make mistakes. Lord knows, I've made my fair share. What concerns me, is this jumper's constant and complete lack of awareness. Skydiving is a risk, but lets keep it to a minimum.
I am in no way attacking this person. I have no vendetta. I'm merely stating my observations and my experiences. If anything has been done to damage this jumper's reputation, it has been the work of that jumper.
I'm done with this thread. If this jumper wishes to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me or speak to me in person.
If they told me "it's not going to open but I'll pack it for $1 so you can haul it home on the plane" I might pay them. Why? Because it might be useful to me to have the thing packed, and I know what I'm getting. Knowing what you are getting is the key.
Same thing with a regular pack job. Ask any packer if their pack jobs are guaranteed to open, and then decide to get it packed or not accordingly. As far as I know only one packer (Cathy) provides such a guarantee, and then only guarantees it as far as a reserve repack.
>Otherwise.. I could just go around stuffing canopies into
>containers and be paid rightfully? Hell no.
Yes, and many packers do just that. I was once told by a packer that there was something wrong with my parachute because it was missing two cells. (It was a 7-cell Pursuit.) Heck, packing is how I paid for my first 50 jumps and I was a horrible packer. I had no ratings, no experience, no innate skill at it. (On the plus side, I did have six jumps.) If you see someone like that version of me at a boogie, why do you think there is any sort of guarantee it will open, or even that they are any good? Because they are willing to take your money, you assume they are skilled, carefully trained professionals?
This is no slam against packers, but many packers are skydivers who want to make some money in skydiving and are not yet skilled/experienced enough to be AFF-I's, riggers, organizers or TM's. That was certainly the path I took. Decide if you want someone like me (circa 1991) packing for you before you hand over that $5. And if you do hand it over, accept that they may pack you a slammer or a mal.
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