elfanie 0 #1 January 5, 2004 Hats off to my trainers... First jump of the day today...went fine through freefall, tracked, and got ready to pull. I planned to pull VERY high because I was having some anxiety about the canopy I was jumping this time, so I waved off at around 6K and reached back to pull (so began the pull probably around 5.5K) Hard pull...pilot chute didn't budge. I grab ahold of the hacky hard and YANK...didn't come out. I knew I started high so I reached down with both hands and YANKED with everything I had.... Pulled hard enough that I litereally pulled my hip over and barrel rolled so now I'm on my back. I let go of the hacky and while I was rolling back onto my back my red cutaway handle was in my hand and already yanked. belly-down, my reserve D-ring was out and before I really even knew what I was doing there was a white reserve canopy over my head. Altimeter was at right around 2K. Fly the reserve in VERY gently and didn't even try to stand the landing (gentle, but sat it down). Since this is Safety and Training... Safety: I violated the 2-try rule...while part of me is kicking myself for, but part of me is making the kicks gentle because I WAS starting high. I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that I tried 3 times instead of two. I'm 99% sure that NEXT time I'd only try two...because I think I was in partial denial for the first pull, like, "huh? what the heck??" whereas next time I have a problem I don't think I'll feel that way. Other than that...I honestly think I did "everything right". I pulled...I chopped..I got my reserve...I landed...I'm safe. I do wish that I'd felt like I remained more altitude aware than I was...it was more, "Yank..yank..YANK...ohgod I need something over me NOW, CHOP" I never looked at my altimeter...should I have? At that point it didn't matter to me what altitude I was at..if I was at 4K I still would have chopped... Training: Emergency proceedures!! I...was slightly impressed...that what I was trained to do was EXACTLY what I did without thinking about it! I mean, sitting here now, I can't tell you, "well, I thought look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver..." I had just done it so many times on the ground that it just happened exactly the way I'd rehearsed. I like that feeling...that's a good feeling to me. not a comfortable feeling...but a comforting feeling. And before anyone asks...yes, I bought beer. And yes, I bought my rigger a BIG bottle of his choice of liquor. Phew...today was an interesting day. Jumped twice more after that...they all but booted me out to the plane on the next load. hee hee. I know they were all wanting to make sure that I "got on the horse" before I lost my gumption. And they were SO wonderful to me at the DZ....supportive, encouraging. And then they did everything they could to make sure that I had a VERY safe jump the next jump (and VERY smooth as butter pilot chute pull) I love my Coolidge family...I really do. What an awesome bunch of people....I'm so lucky to have the people that I jump with. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #2 January 5, 2004 well congrats for doing your emergency procedures. you lived, thats whats important. did your rigger or a packer or someone look at how you packed the pilot-chute? was it a wrong way to pack the pc? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newshooter12 0 #3 January 5, 2004 Glad to hear it all went well. Gotta ask though... Did you pack it yourself? And either way were you able to determine, once on the ground, what exactly caused the hard pull? Also what are you going to do differently, change or keep the same to do your best that the same thing doesn't happen again? Sorry about asking a lot of questions, but when I had a PC issue that was caught in a gear check I ended up changing the way i do things a little.matt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #4 January 5, 2004 Quote did your rigger or a packer or someone look at how you packed the pilot-chute? was it a wrong way to pack the pc? Heh...I'm not the one that packed the pilot chute (and I'm actually glad about that). I got a new rig for christmas and was trying out some different canopies to see what size/type I should buy for a main (the rig I bought has a main that's too small for me right now). This was a rig that I'd jumped a week and a half ago that I had a question about and ended up leaving for the packer to pack. when I landed, one of my trainers came up to me in the field and said, "what happened?" I said, "hard pull...couldn't get the pilot out.." He grabbed the hacky and yanked on it. It didn't come out..and he said, "Yup..." the packer that packed it came up and pulled on it again...and pulled it out and looked at it. I'm actually not sure WHY it got caught in there...but I'm sure it's something the packer was looking into...(he is a fantastic guy who is an excellent packer! I'm actually going to be surprised if it was something he did...and I more expect that it was an odd combination of things like the elastic around the PC holder being tight with a not real smoothed out PC combined with me lesser body strength or something like that...) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #5 January 5, 2004 QuoteHeh...I'm not the one that packed the pilot chute ... When I rent a rig, I pull the PC and bridle out (up to the pin) and repack it myself, specifically to reduce this possibility. (I'm too lazy to unpack and repack the canopy. Besides, the big strong PC deploys the canopy, but I have to deploy the PC.) P.S. Glad you did great! -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #6 January 5, 2004 Thanks for sharing. It's great to hear that you feel so comfortable with your training. I'm curious about why you chopped with the main still in. though?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #7 January 5, 2004 IMO, if you touched it you chop it. How was she to know she had not worked the pilot chute out enough for it to deploy?... then she'd be looking at a two-out situation. Bad juju. If your really short of altitude, its been suggested that you might be better off not cutting but for the split seccond it takes, its worth doing if you're as high as she was. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #8 January 5, 2004 That makes sense, but what I was thinking was that if you chop the main while it's still in and then deploy the reserve, and then the main works it's way loose, you've still got 2 out either way. Would it be better to deal with having 2 out and both attached, or better to just hope that the chopped main doesn't entangle the already open reserve on it's way out?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #9 January 5, 2004 Well if the main comes out the container after you've cutaway and deployed your reserve it will most likely fall away while still in the d-bag, or at least only in the early stages of deployment. (Riggers feel free to chime in and correct this 100 jump wonder. Edit: by the way I mean me not labrys in case there's any confusion). I guess that can still cause an entanglement but I think thats a better risk than having a fully deploying canopy thats still completely attached to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #10 January 5, 2004 How in the world does one get 2 hands on the hackey?smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #11 January 5, 2004 QuoteThanks for sharing. It's great to hear that you feel so comfortable with your training. I'm curious about why you chopped with the main still in. though? This is actually a good question...and one that I was asked by a few different friends of mine that have jumped (but aren't jumpers)..."did you cut away your main anyways? (yes) Why?" In my training...I was told that NO MATTER WHAT you chop...period. NO MATTER WHAT you pull your reserve, even if you have an RSL attached. That if I have a malfunction in which I need to perform emergency proceedures, I look red, grab red, look silver, pull red, pull silver. there was an instance somewhere that was related to me where there was a fatality (not too long ago...and I actually know the person lost, so this isn't an urban legend or a story of a friend of a friend of a cousin of a roomate who knew someone) where there was a PC in tow...he pulled his reserve without chopping his main, main came out with the reserve blow, inflated below him (he was unaware that he was in the process of having a dual out), came up and the end result of how everything turned out was a main-reserve entanglement. In my training I was told always to chop first....that if for some reason my main bag came free, it would probably fall to earth with the canopy still in the bag. (fine with me!) I also suspect that (especially with me being so new with only 37 jumps) they think that my time would not be well spent thinking over the different scenarios and trying to decide whether or not to pull that red pud... time isn't a friend right then....and it takes long enough to just make the decision to perform emergency proceedures. Taking time at that point to decide what those emergency proceedures will be could take time you don't have....so there's no "decision" to be made. once I knew I was going to deviate from "pull the PC"....everything else happened without thought from me (or at least seemed to). -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #12 January 5, 2004 QuoteHow in the world does one get 2 hands on the hackey? Not very well...and obviously not real stable, either, considering that the force of my yank spun me over onto my back (and I truthfully can say that I don't think I truly thought, "OH CRAP!" until I was on my back, knowing how much time I'd just spent and I was without canopy AND ON MY BACK!) I can't say for CERTAIN that both hands were actually on the hacky....more likely is that one hand was gripping the hacky and the other was gripping the hand (or wrist) to help with strength. Probably my wrist. I distinctly remember what the hacky LOOKED like as both hands were there...so I had torked my body a little (not sure how I did that and was on my belly until I yanked). I don't know if it was from torking my body to pull the PC, or the force of the reserve opening...or just the stress from nerves... but *rubs neck* I am quite a bit sore today..neck and shoulders are sore. I will say that if a hard pull ever occurs again....I won't fight it as hard. If I pull once and she doesn't come....that will be my first try. Next one will be everything I have..and it will be one handed. If I can't get it out with a strong everything-I-have pull from one hand, I'm quitting. Not worth the fight. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #13 January 5, 2004 BEER How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #14 January 5, 2004 QuoteBEER Already done! Beer and Stoli's Vodka for my rigger. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #15 January 5, 2004 I was also taught to chop first, because the main will probably stay in the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #16 January 5, 2004 QuoteI was also taught to chop first, because the main will probably stay in the bag. My main stayed in the bag and on my back all the way to the ground.... if it had come out, it would have fallen below me. either way was fine with me. what I didn't want, NO MATTER WHAT, was a reserve entanglement! -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #17 January 5, 2004 >IMO, if you touched it you chop it. The exception to this would be a rig with poor/worn riser covers. If the riser covers are worn, and you cut away a parachute still in the container, the risers may release and flop around over the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #18 January 5, 2004 Congrats and Happy Birthday! thats a BEER jump! ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bsoder 0 #19 January 5, 2004 Quote>IMO, if you touched it you chop it. The exception to this would be a rig with poor/worn riser covers. If the riser covers are worn, and you cut away a parachute still in the container, the risers may release and flop around over the reserve. Our DZO mentioned this, that it happened to someone famous (can't recall the name, someone here will tho) who had the gromet on the slider on his reserve come down and go over the riser of the cut-away main, which fell free and pulled the reserve slider back up, collapsing the reserve? Anyway, his point was that that particular situation was basically a freak thing and his opinion was to cut away first, no question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #20 January 5, 2004 QuoteIMO, if you touched it you chop it. How was she to know she had not worked the pilot chute out enough for it to deploy?... then she'd be looking at a two-out situation. Bad juju. Plus, for the level she is at, having only ONE set of EP's trained, ingrained, and in muscle memory, more assuredly predicts TIMELY and effective actual results. QuoteIf your really short of altitude, its been suggested that you might be better off not cutting but for the split seccond it takes, its worth doing if you're as high as she was. Actually, again at this level, the "split second" it may take to consider this, and think this through (not even considering "brain lock" potentialities, which believe me in high-stress situations can and DOES happen), may be in atuality much LONGER than the "split second" spent in effectuating an ingrained/trained procedure. Thus for many, the proponents of the "single method" (at least for student/novice phase) procedure. Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #21 January 6, 2004 I hadn't considered that the main would stay in the bag, but it makes sense. I think that the idea that as a beginner (me) it's not a great idea to try to analyze a problem is also very important. Thanks for the feedback.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #22 January 6, 2004 analyze it all you want on the ground. In the air, act. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jkm2500 0 #23 January 6, 2004 I have related this story before, and I will probably several more times. This happened about 2 years ago to a friend of mine. I was on the load with him, and if he would have chopped he would be dead right now. After an uneventful 4 way, we broke at 4500'. I tracked and dumped at 3500' as we had planned. When I turned to count canopies, I saw my friend under a badly malfuntioning canopy. I was watching wondering why he hadn't cut away, a few seconds later the main pc cleared the ball of shit above his head, and his main deployed. What had happened was that on climbout his hackey got pushed deep into his ROL, and he couldn't get it out. After the 2 tries he went for silver. When his reserve deployed, it literally blew up. It lost 8 load bearing lines. This jumper was within the specs on this reserve. He was able to dig into the ROL, and extract the main PC. If he would have cut away he would be dead right now. He had between 50 and 100 jumps at the time. It is my opinion that if you dont have anything out do not cut away. That means hard pull, or like in this situation the disappearing hackey. If it isnt in the way, you dont need to cut it away. just my $.02The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #24 January 6, 2004 Quote>IMO, if you touched it you chop it. The exception to this would be a rig with poor/worn riser covers. If the riser covers are worn, and you cut away a parachute still in the container, the risers may release and flop around over the reserve. Thats something i've given thought to. If i had a PC in tow i would just pull the reserve. Seems to me that cutting away a main that isn't out could definately cause the risers to entangle. I haven't yet been in that situation in the air, but going over it in my mind i know what i would do. If you have more thoughts on the subject, please share them with me. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #25 January 6, 2004 Quote If i had a PC in tow i would just pull the reserve. Seems to me that cutting away a main that isn't out could definately cause the risers to entangle. This was one of the specific examples of when my trainer told me to chop anyways. There was a jumper that was just lost in November who had a PC in tow and didn't chop before pulling his reserve and many are blaming that decision on his death (saying that if he'd chopped then pulled his reserve then the main bag with canopy still in it would have just fallen to the earth rather than what ended up happening, which was not good.) I've seen both responses to a PC in tow....you should chop it, and you shouldn't chop it. Bill? Others who have a ton of experience but I can't remember your names right now? What are your opinions about a PC in tow... cut away? or no? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
