billvon 3,006 #26 January 6, 2004 PC in tow is one of those six of one, half a dozen of the other issues. I would cut away, but that's because I have good riser covers (finally!) on all the rigs I use. I think it's likely that the PC will finally succeed in deploying the main once the reserve comes out, and having an instant cutaway is _probably_ preferable to having two deploying at once. But if the main snags on the reserve as it's leaving? That could turn a survivable two-canopy-out scenario into a reserve mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #27 January 6, 2004 Quote I think it's likely that the PC will finally succeed in deploying the main once the reserve comes out, and having an instant cutaway is _probably_ preferable to having two deploying at once. But if the main snags on the reserve as it's leaving? That could turn a survivable two-canopy-out scenario into a reserve mal. but wouldn't the likely result of cutting away, then having the PC deploy the main after the reserve blows out....be that the main, still in the bag (or coming out of the bag) would drop below you and if the main came out of the bag it would do so well clear of you? How likely is the already-cut-free main, being pushed out by the release of the reserve, to go UP so it can entangle with the reserve? And how likely is it to "dump"...to just drop out and sink to earth below you? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #28 January 6, 2004 QuoteThats something i've given thought to. If i had a PC in tow i would just pull the reserve. Seems to me that cutting away a main that isn't out could definately cause the risers to entangle. If you toss your pilot chute and nothing happens, cutaway and pull the reserve. Main risers will just sit there until the reserve risers push them out of the way, or when the main decides to come out of the main tray, it will release as usual. (begin the tangle up arguement at this point) Several years back I borrowed a rig with a pull out. The tab on the bridle was not placed properly and silly me didn't check it. I just did a standard pin check looking to see that the pin was is in place and the handle is in place. I pulled the handle but I couldn't pull the pin and it eventually was yanked out of my hand. The only thing out was a dangling handle. I cutaway and pulled the reserve at the same time. Reserve opened the main fell out of the main container and fell to the ground. What happens in this situation is this: As soon as the reserve is out of the pack tray, the pressure on the divider wall between the main and the reserve container will decrease tremondously. Often just that reduction in pack tension is all it takes for main to come out of the main pack tray. People debate regularily about this subject. I've always felt, that if the pilot chute has been tossed, cutaway and pull the reserve. This exact thought was solidified by listening to other experienced people including AFF Certification Course director Rick Horn. It was further solidified with personal experience. Hope this helps.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #29 January 6, 2004 >but wouldn't the likely result of cutting away, then having the PC > deploy the main after the reserve blows out....be that the main, still > in the bag (or coming out of the bag) would drop below you and if > the main came out of the bag it would do so well clear of you? It depends. I've seen a few main cutaways up close - two of my students pulled the cutaway handle instead of the main ripcord, followed by the main-side JM pulling the main ripcord. In those cases, the main began to deploy, cleared the bag, activated the RSL, and then left. The main ended up well _above_ the reserve. In the case we're talking about, it would depend on what forces the main out of the container. Is it simple reduction of tension on the pin, or was the main bridle wrapped around the reserve poptop? In those cases, the main might even beat the reserve out, because they begin at the same time and the main has a head start. Does the main open due to reserve opening shock? Then it might deploy above you, or might just fall out (if opening is fast, the main is heavy and the PC isn't generating much drag.) So I don't think you can predict exactly what will happen. I lean towards the side of cutting away, but I know cases where cutting away caused problems, and I know of cases where _not_ cutting away caused problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adrock 0 #30 January 9, 2004 Elfanie- Good job on the emergency procedures. I often have hard pulls, but have been able to get it out on the second try always. Now, when I pack I hammer on the (spandex) BOC a few times with my hand to help spread the pilot chute out and take up more of the space. I've had several people ask me why I'm doing it, but it does seem to help reduce the pull force necessary. To all- There's a lot of discussion about pilot chute in tow, but it sounds to me like elfanie didn't have this, because her pilot chute was securely in the bag. My (70-jump wonder) understanding was that if you know you haven't even pulled the pilot chute out of the BOC, that is not a pilot chute in tow and therefore there is no reason to cutaway. I understand that there is some debate on what to do if you have pulled something out. Comments? Addie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #31 January 9, 2004 I don't see what difference it makes. Like you said, she didn't succeed in pulling out the pilot chute, and therefore the main pin was left in place keeping the container closed and the bag in. Even after cutting away it doesn't seem it would go anywhere since even if the risers came off they have nothing like a pilot chute to catch enough air to cause enough force to pull the pin. just my thoughts, i'm not expert, either. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #32 January 9, 2004 QuoteI don't see what difference it makes. You're right...in that it didn't make a difference. I landed with my main still on my back in the bag and my PC still in the pouch. so why did I cut away? Because I didn't think..I just acted. I did what I was trained to do (which is why it's so important to practice your emergency proceedures! Because you don't always think about things, you just do). and I don't think it's probably a good idea to give students "options" of things to do...because that could cause a fatal delay of action with them trying to THINK about what to do too long. I was SHOCKED that I was already at around 2K...surely did NOT feel like I'd fallen 3.5K feet! (and imagine if I'd started at 4K, which is not exactly a low starting point! how many here pull the PC at 3K..or even 2500...) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
