Nightingale 0 #1 March 30, 2004 I have a very close friend who just returned from Iraq. He's got several new scars, but other than that is in one piece and well, thank God. He's expressed an interest in a skydive. He earned his jump wings in Army Airborne school, but has never experienced freefall, since all his jumps were static line. He's asked me if he should do a tandem, or go straight to an AFF 1 jump. My gut says tandem, because as a passenger, you can just enjoy freefall, but I think he might be bored with the canopy ride, since he already knows how to do that part. AFF 1 would be cool because he can control his own canopy, but there's so much to do on the skydive I don't know if he'd really have time to just enjoy the feeling of freefall. Opinions??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #2 March 30, 2004 I'd suggest AFF. A former military static line guy did some AFF at my DZ this weekend. But I'm a newbie or whatever but an airborne should have knowledge of canopy control, go for AFF. La, I'm drunk, don't listen to me. I have only 36 jumps, listen to me even less! Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #3 March 30, 2004 Kris, I am not an instructor, but I think he would be better off going AFF. After Airborne and time in Iraq, a tandem would be a let down. JMO Benny, Shame on you, drunk at 9:40 in the morning? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #4 March 30, 2004 QuoteKris, I am not an instructor, but I think he would be better off going AFF. After Airborne and time in Iraq, a tandem would be a let down. JMO Benny, Shame on you, drunk at 9:40 in the morning? Sparky Damnit I'm on th east coast! Drinky at 12:30... work let out early. Yeah, AFF! We agree on something sparky. Woohoo! Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #5 March 30, 2004 Kris, I had ABSOLUTELY NO canopy experience whatsoever and did AFF1 for my first jump. . .well, I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. In my humble opinion, a person who has canopy experience is going to be bored with a Tandem because someone else is doing the experience. Like Michael and Benny, I recommend AFF 1. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 March 30, 2004 Does your DZ use a tandem progression? Honestly, a working tandem is IMHO the best way to start. Less time for training for the first jump and you learn how to fly the canopy hands on, instead of via the radio. Furthermore, from what I have personally seen, folks who do a tandem progression learn faster and do better through the rest of AFF then those who start with AFF initially, especially with canopy control. Also, he does not know how to fly the canopy, since it is a world different between a square and the T-10 he's jumped. Honestly, that's my opinion as an instructor, other instructors will have other opinions, but in the end it is really and truely up to him.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #7 March 30, 2004 IMO, AFF. No offense Dave, I don't doubt you would give him a hell of a ride. A tandem jump most likely will be too tame. Even a working jump. Since he has already got some experience with both jumping out of a plane and rudimentary canopy control, AFF will add another dimension. But hey, what do I know... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #8 March 30, 2004 I am probably going against what most are saying but I think Tandem is the best route for a first time jump. Over the years at my DZ I have talked to quite a few AFF 1 first time jump students after their jump and when asked how they liked it. Most responded with a kind of unenthusiastic it was good but I could have preformed better. Now I have asked the same question to a lot of tandem students and they all have that ear to ear grin and a very enthusiastic “It was incredible”. I think that since AFF 1 is to prepare you to get your license, the fact in the air you have a set agenda of practice handle touch’s and circle of awareness detracts from the experience a lot. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #9 March 30, 2004 There is a REALLY big difference between rounds and squares. He'll have the PLF nailed, but the square canopy is totally unlike anything he's done before.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #10 March 30, 2004 In looking at what some have posted I think a good idea would be to have your friend talk to the DZ and see if they can do a modified Tandem I to make it more of a working skydive since he has some experience about exit and canopy control. This way he's learning on the skydive and not just there for the ride. If they can't do that, I suggest the AFF I. I have a feeling this guy will do fine after everything he's experienced in Airborne school and being in Iraq. I don't think he's going to be one of those students that freezes up.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 March 30, 2004 QuoteI don't doubt you would give him a hell of a ride. A tandem jump most likely will be too tame I can see your point, although with my "working" students, they don't get the "hell of a ride" its business. We have a nice stable exit, no flips or dicking around and then they're in control (well, after the drogue is out). They do handle touches, turns, forward movement (on the second jumps) and deploy the canopy. I then hand them the toggles and they start learning canopy. First starting with emergancy proceedures, well, sort of, I help them identify if it is a good canopy, finding the airport, then what a landing pattern is, how we're flying it, and we start with practice flares. 9 times out of 10 we're not doing spirals, especially since initiating deployment at 5.5k (when they pull) we don't have a lot of time for training. He might enjoy a true AFF jump a bit more, eitherway, I'm sure he's going to enjoy freefall and flying a more controlable canopy.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #12 March 30, 2004 If that dude showed up at Raeford, I would have taken him on a Cat A tandem and let him do all the work. If he did well, then great; his next skydive (after the AFF ground course) would be a Cat B AFF and he would not have wasted a penny by doing his first jump as a "tandem." If he didn't like freefall, then he would know immediately, without "wasting" seven hours in a full ground class. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #13 March 30, 2004 He might be bored with a canopy ride?!?!?! May thee be smoten by the smites. Just kidding. I loved AFF. My level one jump I did the training objectives so fast it seemed like I had forever to enjoy freefall. I like Chuck Blue's idea. Find out on tandem. That way he doesn't waste any money if he doesn't like it ... yeah, like that'll happen. Glad he's back in one piece. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #14 March 30, 2004 regardless, he's not wasting money, because I'm buying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #15 March 30, 2004 The other plus side to tandem would be the canopy ride. I do not know about other dropzones but our student rigs really are dosile canopies ( Falcon 265's), they really do not do much in the way of fun canopy ride. Where as the tandem canopies Strong Set 400 will at least make the canopy flight more fun, they will turn alot faster and spiral better than any student rigs we have. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #16 March 30, 2004 I'm rethinking this. I think the best way would be for him to go through all the AFF levels. Twice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #17 March 30, 2004 I taught a British Para last summer who came to Pitt Meadows basically straight from the war. He and his 'mate' were a bit unsure how they would be welcomed since we didn't participate in the war. They were thrilled to find out that their money was no good at the local cowboy bar once people found out they had participated in the liberation of Tikrit. Airbourne soldiers have some advantages learning to skydive, and some disadvantages. They have gotten out so they are unlikely to be overwhelmed by the adrenaline. This IMHO is the main advantage of the Tandem first jump. If the DZ where he is going uses tandem primarily as a weeder I would suggest he skip it. The biggest disadvantage he will have is that paratroopers are usually taught to 'stiffen up' for exit, opening and landing due to the inherent violence of each in their experience. Getting them to relax is usually a big chore. As far as your friend's canopy control experiences go, it is important to remember that airbourne not only use rounds, they use unmodified rounds. That means they are non-steerable. Unless your friend took some advanced training his canopy control skills are zero. This could mean a tandem would be useful. Just because a man is a soldier doesn't mean all stereotypes apply to him. That said, most soldiers are used to taking care of themselves. The tandem experience may contain a bit more 'reliance on others' for his taste. On balance I would think AFF would be fine right away. Would doing a tandem end up costing him more money in the end? It doesn't sound like it would at Aggiedave's or Skymonkey's DZs, but it would at other places. Find out how involved the tandem would be where you are going to take him and let him know the pros and cons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 March 30, 2004 QuoteWhere as the tandem canopies Strong Set 400 will at least make the canopy flight more fun, they will turn alot faster and spiral better than any student rigs we have. And those are one the very low end of performance as tandem canopies go. Look at the Icuras canopy, that thing will move, same with the Cobalt and Firebolt. The Sigma has almost the exact same planeform as a Vengence, just without airlocks, that thing will rock through some spirals and turns, never mind that it has a VERY powerful flare.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #19 March 30, 2004 QuoteWould doing a tandem end up costing him more money in the end? It doesn't sound like it would at Aggiedave's or Skymonkey's DZs, Actually, the tandem progression at Skydive Aggieland (my DZ) ends up saving a student roughly $300 compared to a traditional AFF program. The students tend to learn faster too, so its win win.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #20 March 30, 2004 QuoteLook at the Icurus canopy, that thing will move, same with the Cobalt and Firebolt. I have not heard of a Cobalt tandem canopy. Who's rigs are they approved for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #21 March 30, 2004 I would have to agree with Dave and go with tandem. It usually ends up cheaper, if the dz has a tandem progression program. And yes, tandem rides can be one hell of a ride if done correctly. It allows a student to focus on training for a specific protion of the dive with better results IMO. Having an instructor with you under canopy is hard to top when it comes to teaching canopy control to someone who is foreign to the concept. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #22 March 30, 2004 Perris will let you do an AFF 2 after the FJC if you've done a tandem and informed them prior to doing the tandem that you're planning on AFF, because then the TM makes it a working tandem instead of a fun one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyDave 0 #23 March 30, 2004 i agree with everyone else... airborne counts 3 fold.! go aff, he knows how to fly a canopy. so all thats really left is the bit in between, with all the canopy knowledge he wont have to consentrate so much on landing, and may perform better at the freefall stages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #24 March 30, 2004 If the guy can jump a round loaded with 80lbs+ of gear into enemy fire, I think he'll be able to manage AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #25 March 30, 2004 I don't think he's jumped into enemy fire... as far as I know, his only jumps were training jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
