helldog 0 #1 January 5, 2004 On Jan 4th a jumper with greater than 50 jumps sustained a knee injury from a hard landing. Winds were light the jumper was setup nicely into the wind for landing. Shortly after coming to full flare about with 5-7 feet of altitude remaining the jumper raised her handles rapidly and completely. The canopy immediately dove and smacked her into the ground pretty hard. It Looked pretty ugly but don't think she tore the ACL. I have witnessed this 3 times previously by this jumper and am concerned for her well being. It appears that when she flares just slightly too early she's afraid of stalling the canopy and so lets up on the toggles. As a low timer i'm hesitant to give her advice on this but have talked to 2 of the more experienced jumpers at the DZ and asked them to tell her not to let up on the toggles. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated Thank and Blue ones Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #2 January 5, 2004 Quote It appears that when she flares just slightly too early she's afraid of stalling the canopy and so lets up on the toggles. Question: I've stalled a canopy upon landing (see a thread in this forum "Lesson Learned - Re: Goggles" or something like that). Unless you're at a stupidly high altitude still (like 50 feet)....wouldn't it be better to stall the canopy and fall straight down (if you're at 6-15 feet) than to let off on the toggles? one would be more like jumping off a table (or off of the roof of a house)....and the other would be more like the hand of God slamming you into the ground...right? My question is...is this assessment accurate? That if you're about to stall fairly low that the impact would be less than if you try to let your canopy fly..? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helldog 0 #3 January 5, 2004 I was instructed that you don't let up if your that low...rather prepare to plf the landing. And after seeing someone smack themselves 3 times it has further reinforced this point to me. A stall at 5 ft. with a good plf probably won't hurt you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #4 January 5, 2004 I realize I'm in no way an instructor. But I've caught myself snapping at jumpers I saw landing (I spend a great deal of time at the landing area, usually with my camera's) and doing just that. Basic rules for landing include 'did ya flare? keep it there!' (Translation I just made up). Unless you're really high up you don't have the time to let the canopy fly again before it dives into the ground. If you haven't flared all the way yet you can pause a bit then finish. Also a lot of students 'reach' for a couple jumps not realizing what they're doing with the toggles. Usually the jumpers respond to my somewhat-snap with a 'ow I didn't realise I did that' or 'I won't do that again!' I think they get that they somewhat frightened me! Of course if there is an instructor etc already there I don't say anything. But if I'm not sure anybody else saw it I do comment (and say that I'm no instructor too). Can't help myself... And I hope I prevented a landing incident or two (saw too many of them already). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #5 January 5, 2004 Quote Question: I've stalled a canopy upon landing (see a thread in this forum "Lesson Learned - Re: Goggles" or something like that). Unless you're at a stupidly high altitude still (like 50 feet)....wouldn't it be better to stall the canopy and fall straight down (if you're at 6-15 feet) than to let off on the toggles? one would be more like jumping off a table (or off of the roof of a house)....and the other would be more like the hand of God slamming you into the ground...right? when canopy is stalled it will pull jumper backwards exposing him/her to possible back injuries. one of the jumpers on my dz stalled her canopy probably 15 feet up high and fell backwards on her back. she cracked a vertebrate. so i don't think stalling is a very good option. stan. -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #6 January 5, 2004 Quote when canopy is stalled it will pull jumper backwards exposing him/her to possible back injuries. one of the jumpers on my dz stalled her canopy probably 15 feet up high and fell backwards on her back. she cracked a vertebrate. so i don't think stalling is a very good option. stan. Huh...I hadn't thought about that. Good point. While stalling isn't a very good option (because, of course, NOT stalling and doing a soft standing up landing is the method of choice...of course) when it comes to a choice of releasing the flare, or stalling the canopy...which is better? when I stalled, it litereally just "dropped"...it was exactly like I just jumped off of a 6' high table. Like all of a sudden there was nothing holding me at all... but on a different canopy in altitude, I felt that pull backwards like you're tipping a chair, and can see how that would slam you down on your back if it happened during the landing. so which would be considered preferable? (if you find yourself in the unfortunate position of having to choose one or the other) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #7 January 5, 2004 Quote so which would be considered preferable? (if you find yourself in the unfortunate position of having to choose one or the other) i beleive none. let go brakes slowly if you over-flare, keep your wing leveled and over your head. i don't beleive that there is any preferable way out of two wrong ones. falling on you back is dangerous, insticts will tell you to put your arms behind you and that might make things much worse. i know that becasue i fell down flat on my back from 20+ feet on hard ground. i put my right arm behind me and i literaly crashed it. i was lucky to get to the good doc who fixed me up pretty nice. it wasn't skydiving related, though. so i can see some advantages falling forward, but again, best way is to avoid it. it's the case when you have to choose either falling backwards or forawrd. in this case you have an option not to fall. stan. -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZoneRat 0 #8 January 5, 2004 You should discuss whatever answers (including mine) you get on this forum with your instructors. That said... When the jumper went rapidly to full flight it caused the canopy to "surge". (i.e. momentarily dive towards the ground) this may have caused the jumper to pendulum back for a couple sec's then pendulum forward towards the ground at the end of the surge... adding the pendulum speed to the forward drive of the canopy. The same principal applies to hook turns. It can be ok to *slowly* let up the toggles *some* if you've flaired too early (go ahead and flare at the end). If you lift the toggles judiciously, you don't get the surge. Or, just quit pulling them down until you're at the appropriate height and then continue the flare. I'd personally much rather see a young jumper moderate and adjust the flair by slowly lifting the toggles than see one stall the canopy at 6-15 feet. Ask an instructor to show you a good speed and distance to lift the toggles. It's not exactly *slow* it's medium speed. Then practice it up high. It's pretty easy to get the hang of it. _____________ A helpful Drill: A good way to know how fast to flair: Go to a stairwell. Start at the height you'd normally start your flair. As you walk down the stairs, push your hands down in a flairing motion... adjusting the speed of the flair as you decend. You should finish the flair on the second to last step. Do this several times... going down the stairs at varying speeds and tempos.“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #9 January 5, 2004 Helpful information on the stair thing. . .and please, Don't take my advice. . .I am an AFF student and have not had perfect landings. . .soft, but not perfect. I tend to spend a great deal of time laying on my back at home and looking at the ceiling. . .the height of my living room ceiling is 12 feet. . .I visualize me beginning my flair at this point and then pushing all the way into the flair. . .it seems to be helping my depth perception. . .I look at it from several different angles so I can see it from my peripheral vision, horizon, straight down(ground fixation), etc. . . I have dropped out of the sky from a stall at about 5 feet off the ground. . .a deep knee bend kept me on my feet for the landing and I didn't hurt anything, but I did not like the jolt of the landing. . .I have been much more careful since that jump to do the following: 1. When I think it is time to flair, take a deep breath and look around me. . .basically see if I am low enough. 2. Start the flair slowly and steadily pulling to a full flair as my feet approach the ground. . . 3. If I find I am too high as I reach half brakes. . .hesitate a bit before pulling to full brakes. I will say that the only step here that has helped me so far has been the deep breath and look around - gets me closer to the ground so I am at a better flair height. . .landings have been much softer since then. . .also keeps me from ground fixating. Just my two cents. . .since I am a student I am just trying different things that help me to relax and fly my canopy all the way to the ground SAFELY. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #10 January 5, 2004 QuoteI was instructed that you don't let up if your that low...rather prepare to plf the landing. And after seeing someone smack themselves 3 times it has further reinforced this point to me. A stall at 5 ft. with a good plf probably won't hurt you. YESS!!! That is very true....that low, with a bad flare and a PROPER PLF...then you should be ok...I flared low and unfortunately I didn't perform a proper PLF and had the honor of visiting the interior of the Lake Wales Medical Center facilities...Lesson learned...Cheers...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 January 6, 2004 1. When I think it is time to flair, take a deep breath and look around me. . .basically see if I am low enough. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good point about remembering to breath while on final approach. Any technique that helps you relax on final approach will result in a softer landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #12 January 6, 2004 Usually the jumpers respond to my somewhat-snap ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope this is an error in translation, but "snapping" at students may produce a short-term change in behaviour, but rarely improves performance in the long run. "Snapping" is a fear/anger based attempt at intensifying the message. This harsh technique is often used by army drill sargents, but rarely successful with civilian skydivers. You will see a greater improvement in landing behavior by offering to show them video of their botched landing, because half the time, skydivers are not aware of their sloppy landing technique. Video is by far the best training aid for improving landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #13 January 7, 2004 Alright so the word is too strong.... Not my native language ya know... BTW I do have pics of landings that could've gone better, but not everybody wants to see 'em... 'I caught a side gust' see pics, yeah right ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
