donovan 0 #1 January 1, 2004 It's amazing how on the ground you think you will never go low! You tell yourself over and over to keep good height awareness. I always had good awareness and I was nearly always the one to initiate break off until............ At my first boogie i decided to give my starcrest a go. I'd done about 60 or so two ways and about 50 three, four, five ways etc. Under the pressure of the starcrest i did what all my tutors said not to, I went low trying to dive in. Instead of getting out of there at at least one thousand feet from planned breakaway I stupidly sat under the formation waiting till they broke off at 4500'. I then watched the direction they tracked and started my track. So worried about the formations tracking direction I didn't hear my dytter until it started screaming at 1500. I was in full track so i braked and deployed. It had to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled. I was fully inflated when i looked behind and saw my reserve freebag falling to my right. Next minute there I was with two canopies out! Fortunately my main was out front and my reserve was at the rear. I steered my main and landed safely. Lesson for me was I didn't ask what I should do if I happen to go low and not be able to slow enough to get back to the base of the formation. Second BIG lesson was one of the BASIC principles I thought were inground in me and that was height awareness. An invaluable lesson learnt(the wrong way!) "I never thought the 'shark' would bite me!" Needless to say I was grounded for the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cesslon 0 #2 January 1, 2004 im new to this sport what does it mean by "ad to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled." also why did your reserve come out was it a cypress fire or was it simply ya main ripped it out ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites coffeejoe 0 #3 January 1, 2004 Bear in mind I am a sub 100 jump person. This is just my opinion and it´s probably not worth much. Yes it was a cypres fire, this is rather common when people freak out and try to deploy their main as low as that. Cypres expert activation altitude is 750ft AGL, but it is not always very precise (depending on what body position you spend most of your time during freefall and other things. Fore more info go to http://www.cypres-usa.com/cyp13.htm), and this IS to be expected. As it was mentioned, the snivel (the time your canopy spends above your head with the slider still up) also consumes altitude, and that is a very good thing because it avoids too fast deceleration which could hurt you or your canopy. Personally I would have deployed my reserve instead of risking entanglement, but I would like to hear more experienced people thoughts on that. The main thing here is just what you said - altitude awareness. If I caught myself in that situation, being a low timer like I am, I would take a step back and do more 2-ways. As to being under the formation at break off, you do just what you are expected to do, you track away. Usually the cameraflyer deploys in place, I´m sure he was very unease with you sitting under him (suppose there was one). Learn to track well. Ask for some tips on tracking from some experienced guy. A good track you take you above the formation and far enough to deploy safely. Talk to your instructors and to experienced skydivers. I´m unexperienced and you could get killed following my advice. Be safe and take care! Happy new year! Eduardo ps. the 'shark' will bite anyone. A friend of mine with 1500+ went low the other day and had two canopies out too - just like you - while AFFing someone with a broken altimeter. Look at the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Blahr 0 #4 January 1, 2004 Quoteim new to this sport what does it mean by "ad to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled." also why did your reserve come out was it a cypress fire or was it simply ya main ripped it out ? This means that his main took a good while to inflate rather than opening fast. I expect the reserve deployment was a cypres fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #5 January 1, 2004 Quoteim new to this sport what does it mean by "ad to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled." First-generation Sabre's are known for their quick, and sometimes brutal, openings. I'll testify on the brutal part, I used to own one. However, a friend who had a 190 never got anything but sweet, soft openings out of his.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdesilets 0 #6 January 1, 2004 Glad to hear you are ok.. You learned first hand that your cypres was a good investment and it almost saved your life. For those low time jumpers who don't think a cypres is worth the investment, here is a case in point.. Sure, the double canopy out is also a potentially dangerous situation, but if you did not hear the siren of your dytter (the same way you did not hear the other tone(s)) as you were tracking (and did not have a cypres) you would be dead. I bet that before this you thought you were a pretty heads up and altitude dude So, if you were in this exact situation again, what would you do differently? Also, as you progress to larger RW formations its important that you understand the basic safety principles of formation skydiving -- specifically what happens if you go low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites donovan 0 #7 January 1, 2004 Yeah it was a cypress fire and it did go off early according to my alti. My main was fully inflated at just under a thousand feet. It has given confidence that a cypress will work for me. I've only done around 300 jumps but at this stage I will always have a cypress because of the confidence it gives me that no matter what happens at least one canopy will be out. I have been low of a formation since then but the lesson I learnt has been to get out and track off early. At least 1000' before planned breakaway of the group. The main lesson and reason I posted this incident was the lesson of BE HEIGHT AWARE! I thought i'd never go low and i did. So low to cause a cypress fire, scary stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #8 January 1, 2004 Read this: http://www.cypres-usa.com/cyp13.htm - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #9 January 1, 2004 QuoteYou learned first hand that your cypres was a good investment and it almost saved your life. Puh-leeze, wrong situation/illustration to whip this statement out upon altogether! I don't think that THIS is what is to be learned from this incident at all, and in fact I would submit that one can take precisely the OPPOSITE position on this. Instead, it was a cypres fire here that could have rather COST him his life! Not that the Cypres is "at fault" in EITHER WAY at all in this incident. It is clearly, as the jumper notes himself: his loss off altitude awareness, and his failure to deploy otherwise at the appropriate (Cypres CONSIDERED) altitude. Quote...as you were tracking (and did not have a cypres) you would be dead. Actually, in this actual (rather than hypothetical ---who ever said he was screaming completely into the ground? ) incident, had this jumper not had a Cypres; instead he would have simply just been open, and under his main at ~1500'! More reasonable possible alternative scenario... because he knows he has a Cypres, and finds himself again in this situation, he dumps directly his reserve. ...(??) One "issue" definitely agreed here though. It is something that should be more completely thought out, and understood when making your Cypres purchase/usage (or NOT) considerations. Using this particular situation though, as the "poster child" for absolute Cypres usage is definitely off base. My .02, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SPSJ 0 #10 January 2, 2004 QuoteIt's amazing how on the ground you think you will never go low! You tell yourself over and over to keep good height awareness. I always had good awareness and I was nearly always the one to initiate break off until............ At my first boogie i decided to give my starcrest a go. I'd done about 60 or so two ways and about 50 three, four, five ways etc. Under the pressure of the starcrest i did what all my tutors said not to, I went low trying to dive in. Instead of getting out of there at at least one thousand feet from planned breakaway I stupidly sat under the formation waiting till they broke off at 4500'. I then watched the direction they tracked and started my track. So worried about the formations tracking direction I didn't hear my dytter until it started screaming at 1500. I was in full track so i braked and deployed. It had to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled. I was fully inflated when i looked behind and saw my reserve freebag falling to my right. Next minute there I was with two canopies out! Fortunately my main was out front and my reserve was at the rear. I steered my main and landed safely. Lesson for me was I didn't ask what I should do if I happen to go low and not be able to slow enough to get back to the base of the formation. Second BIG lesson was one of the BASIC principles I thought were inground in me and that was height awareness. An invaluable lesson learnt(the wrong way!) "I never thought the 'shark' would bite me!" Needless to say I was grounded for the day. Survival Tip -change to reflect your type of dive Altitude Awareness Wake up Call QuoteInstead of getting out of there at at least one thousand feet from planned breakaway I stupidly sat under the formation waiting till they broke off at 4500'. Actually, staying (at the outside edge of the formation, not under it) until the first wave break off altitude is the better idea. You leave with them [or there abouts] and deploy at whatever their assigned pull altitude is. Tracking off early means that no one knows WTF you are at break off. ........Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jverley 1 #11 January 2, 2004 QuoteActually, staying (at the outside edge of the formation, not under it) until the first wave breaks off is the better idea. You leave with them and deploy at whatever their assigned altitude is. I disagree with this in part. Staying to the side is fine but you should begin your track when you reach the breakoff altitude not when the group does. If you are 2500 feet low, are you going to wait until 1500 feet to break off? Since most jumpers cannot judge how low they are relative to the formation, use the information you have available (your altitude) and follow the break off plan.John Arizona Hiking Trails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SPSJ 0 #12 January 2, 2004 Quote QuoteActually, staying (at the outside edge of the formation, not under it) until the first wave breaks off is the better idea. You leave with them and deploy at whatever their assigned altitude is. I disagree with this in part. Staying to the side is fine but you should begin your track when you reach the breakoff altitude not when the group does. If you are 2500 feet low, are you going to wait until 1500 feet to break off? Since most jumpers cannot judge how low they are relative to the formation, use the information you have available (your altitude) and follow the break off plan. I rephrased my reply.Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites donovan 0 #13 January 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou learned first hand that your cypres was a good investment and it almost saved your life. Yeah you're right, the two canopies out here could have killed me, sorry i meant just experiencing the cypress fire made me realise it will fire. Kinda like when my main canopy opened on my first ever jump. It was reassuring having experienced it. But i do agree this was a crap way of experiencing it. And for the article regarding the recommended procedure for tracking having gone low three instructors at my drop zone all advised it is better to get out of there early and track away so long as it is not on heading with the plane. To date i have put in my training and understanding what my instructors have told me to do. Should I check the advice of my instructors? Any member of the formation may not know where i am but i'm sure the remaining seven don't account for all other jumpers in separation but they WILL check that they themselves are clear of all other jumpers at time of deployment. By this time I would be well clear of the remaining seven jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdesilets 0 #14 January 2, 2004 Not sure how you figure that his main would be open at ~1500'? He said that he was in a track as his dytter siren went off at (1500'), then he stopped tracking, dumped, and his sabre2 snivelled a bit.. and he was in the saddle a little under 1000'. You said that his cypres "could" have cost him his life, using the hypotherical situation (and you ragged on me for throwing out a hypothetical situation ) that he had a main/reserve entanglement, down plane, etc. -- but he did not and landed both canopies without incident. I said that the cypres "could" have saved his life if he did not pull when he did -- using the hypothetical situation that he did not hear the last siren and had complete loss of altitude awareness. I think we both have valid points, using 'what if' scenerios. I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdesilets 0 #15 January 2, 2004 I disagree with these instructors and agree with the others who commented. It is taught on large formation skyding to STAY with the formation (not under it) until the altitude of the first wave and track to their assigned pull altitude, verify you have clear airspace (side to side, down, up, front), wave off, and pull. To just get the heck out of dodge (E.g. start tracking early) is a bad thing. At break off no one knows where the hell you are and you don't know where anyone else is. Get outside from under the formation and practice "popping up" (so you are no longer low) to the formation until the correct time to track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites taipan 0 #16 January 2, 2004 I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. Totally agree here. I would like to add, if someone was low and unable to get back to base I would want them to get the hell out of my way early so I would be safe. I have two eyes but they are not perfect when trying to see someone under me camouflaged against the ground. Safety tip- If low get out of eveyones space. Track off early(not on heading). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #17 January 2, 2004 This probably should be another thread, but I believe most big way organizers will tell you not to track early if you go low. It is unsafe. Good formation skydivers will know you are low, and keep track of you during breakoff just like they keep track of all the other people in their vicinity. You just blend into the first wave of trackers like someone who is on level, but out of the formation. Tracking away early makes it impossible for the group to know where you are. If you manage to get 2500 feet low on a formation, you are probably not on your belly. You would be about 12 seconds lower than everyone else. That's quite an accomplishment. You would rock at hybrids. Most people who go low will stay within 100 feet of a formation, usually much closer. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites taipan 0 #18 January 2, 2004 I agree with that regarding experienced jumpers. However this was a starcrest load so i'm guessing it could have had other inexperienced jumpers on it as well. With these variables the question would be best asked of the dzso at the time of organizing whether it would be best to leave early if you go low or wait to planned break off altitude before you start tracking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #19 January 2, 2004 ... whether it would be best to leave early if you go low or wait to planned break off altitude before you start tracking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior jumpers expect you to - hang out off to the side of the formation and - start tracking at the same time as the first wave. Any other scenario only complicates the dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cesslon 0 #2 January 1, 2004 im new to this sport what does it mean by "ad to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled." also why did your reserve come out was it a cypress fire or was it simply ya main ripped it out ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coffeejoe 0 #3 January 1, 2004 Bear in mind I am a sub 100 jump person. This is just my opinion and it´s probably not worth much. Yes it was a cypres fire, this is rather common when people freak out and try to deploy their main as low as that. Cypres expert activation altitude is 750ft AGL, but it is not always very precise (depending on what body position you spend most of your time during freefall and other things. Fore more info go to http://www.cypres-usa.com/cyp13.htm), and this IS to be expected. As it was mentioned, the snivel (the time your canopy spends above your head with the slider still up) also consumes altitude, and that is a very good thing because it avoids too fast deceleration which could hurt you or your canopy. Personally I would have deployed my reserve instead of risking entanglement, but I would like to hear more experienced people thoughts on that. The main thing here is just what you said - altitude awareness. If I caught myself in that situation, being a low timer like I am, I would take a step back and do more 2-ways. As to being under the formation at break off, you do just what you are expected to do, you track away. Usually the cameraflyer deploys in place, I´m sure he was very unease with you sitting under him (suppose there was one). Learn to track well. Ask for some tips on tracking from some experienced guy. A good track you take you above the formation and far enough to deploy safely. Talk to your instructors and to experienced skydivers. I´m unexperienced and you could get killed following my advice. Be safe and take care! Happy new year! Eduardo ps. the 'shark' will bite anyone. A friend of mine with 1500+ went low the other day and had two canopies out too - just like you - while AFFing someone with a broken altimeter. Look at the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #4 January 1, 2004 Quoteim new to this sport what does it mean by "ad to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled." also why did your reserve come out was it a cypress fire or was it simply ya main ripped it out ? This means that his main took a good while to inflate rather than opening fast. I expect the reserve deployment was a cypres fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #5 January 1, 2004 Quoteim new to this sport what does it mean by "ad to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled." First-generation Sabre's are known for their quick, and sometimes brutal, openings. I'll testify on the brutal part, I used to own one. However, a friend who had a 190 never got anything but sweet, soft openings out of his.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdesilets 0 #6 January 1, 2004 Glad to hear you are ok.. You learned first hand that your cypres was a good investment and it almost saved your life. For those low time jumpers who don't think a cypres is worth the investment, here is a case in point.. Sure, the double canopy out is also a potentially dangerous situation, but if you did not hear the siren of your dytter (the same way you did not hear the other tone(s)) as you were tracking (and did not have a cypres) you would be dead. I bet that before this you thought you were a pretty heads up and altitude dude So, if you were in this exact situation again, what would you do differently? Also, as you progress to larger RW formations its important that you understand the basic safety principles of formation skydiving -- specifically what happens if you go low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
donovan 0 #7 January 1, 2004 Yeah it was a cypress fire and it did go off early according to my alti. My main was fully inflated at just under a thousand feet. It has given confidence that a cypress will work for me. I've only done around 300 jumps but at this stage I will always have a cypress because of the confidence it gives me that no matter what happens at least one canopy will be out. I have been low of a formation since then but the lesson I learnt has been to get out and track off early. At least 1000' before planned breakaway of the group. The main lesson and reason I posted this incident was the lesson of BE HEIGHT AWARE! I thought i'd never go low and i did. So low to cause a cypress fire, scary stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 January 1, 2004 Read this: http://www.cypres-usa.com/cyp13.htm - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #9 January 1, 2004 QuoteYou learned first hand that your cypres was a good investment and it almost saved your life. Puh-leeze, wrong situation/illustration to whip this statement out upon altogether! I don't think that THIS is what is to be learned from this incident at all, and in fact I would submit that one can take precisely the OPPOSITE position on this. Instead, it was a cypres fire here that could have rather COST him his life! Not that the Cypres is "at fault" in EITHER WAY at all in this incident. It is clearly, as the jumper notes himself: his loss off altitude awareness, and his failure to deploy otherwise at the appropriate (Cypres CONSIDERED) altitude. Quote...as you were tracking (and did not have a cypres) you would be dead. Actually, in this actual (rather than hypothetical ---who ever said he was screaming completely into the ground? ) incident, had this jumper not had a Cypres; instead he would have simply just been open, and under his main at ~1500'! More reasonable possible alternative scenario... because he knows he has a Cypres, and finds himself again in this situation, he dumps directly his reserve. ...(??) One "issue" definitely agreed here though. It is something that should be more completely thought out, and understood when making your Cypres purchase/usage (or NOT) considerations. Using this particular situation though, as the "poster child" for absolute Cypres usage is definitely off base. My .02, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPSJ 0 #10 January 2, 2004 QuoteIt's amazing how on the ground you think you will never go low! You tell yourself over and over to keep good height awareness. I always had good awareness and I was nearly always the one to initiate break off until............ At my first boogie i decided to give my starcrest a go. I'd done about 60 or so two ways and about 50 three, four, five ways etc. Under the pressure of the starcrest i did what all my tutors said not to, I went low trying to dive in. Instead of getting out of there at at least one thousand feet from planned breakaway I stupidly sat under the formation waiting till they broke off at 4500'. I then watched the direction they tracked and started my track. So worried about the formations tracking direction I didn't hear my dytter until it started screaming at 1500. I was in full track so i braked and deployed. It had to be one of those times my sabre150 actually snivelled. I was fully inflated when i looked behind and saw my reserve freebag falling to my right. Next minute there I was with two canopies out! Fortunately my main was out front and my reserve was at the rear. I steered my main and landed safely. Lesson for me was I didn't ask what I should do if I happen to go low and not be able to slow enough to get back to the base of the formation. Second BIG lesson was one of the BASIC principles I thought were inground in me and that was height awareness. An invaluable lesson learnt(the wrong way!) "I never thought the 'shark' would bite me!" Needless to say I was grounded for the day. Survival Tip -change to reflect your type of dive Altitude Awareness Wake up Call QuoteInstead of getting out of there at at least one thousand feet from planned breakaway I stupidly sat under the formation waiting till they broke off at 4500'. Actually, staying (at the outside edge of the formation, not under it) until the first wave break off altitude is the better idea. You leave with them [or there abouts] and deploy at whatever their assigned pull altitude is. Tracking off early means that no one knows WTF you are at break off. ........Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jverley 1 #11 January 2, 2004 QuoteActually, staying (at the outside edge of the formation, not under it) until the first wave breaks off is the better idea. You leave with them and deploy at whatever their assigned altitude is. I disagree with this in part. Staying to the side is fine but you should begin your track when you reach the breakoff altitude not when the group does. If you are 2500 feet low, are you going to wait until 1500 feet to break off? Since most jumpers cannot judge how low they are relative to the formation, use the information you have available (your altitude) and follow the break off plan.John Arizona Hiking Trails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPSJ 0 #12 January 2, 2004 Quote QuoteActually, staying (at the outside edge of the formation, not under it) until the first wave breaks off is the better idea. You leave with them and deploy at whatever their assigned altitude is. I disagree with this in part. Staying to the side is fine but you should begin your track when you reach the breakoff altitude not when the group does. If you are 2500 feet low, are you going to wait until 1500 feet to break off? Since most jumpers cannot judge how low they are relative to the formation, use the information you have available (your altitude) and follow the break off plan. I rephrased my reply.Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
donovan 0 #13 January 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou learned first hand that your cypres was a good investment and it almost saved your life. Yeah you're right, the two canopies out here could have killed me, sorry i meant just experiencing the cypress fire made me realise it will fire. Kinda like when my main canopy opened on my first ever jump. It was reassuring having experienced it. But i do agree this was a crap way of experiencing it. And for the article regarding the recommended procedure for tracking having gone low three instructors at my drop zone all advised it is better to get out of there early and track away so long as it is not on heading with the plane. To date i have put in my training and understanding what my instructors have told me to do. Should I check the advice of my instructors? Any member of the formation may not know where i am but i'm sure the remaining seven don't account for all other jumpers in separation but they WILL check that they themselves are clear of all other jumpers at time of deployment. By this time I would be well clear of the remaining seven jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdesilets 0 #14 January 2, 2004 Not sure how you figure that his main would be open at ~1500'? He said that he was in a track as his dytter siren went off at (1500'), then he stopped tracking, dumped, and his sabre2 snivelled a bit.. and he was in the saddle a little under 1000'. You said that his cypres "could" have cost him his life, using the hypotherical situation (and you ragged on me for throwing out a hypothetical situation ) that he had a main/reserve entanglement, down plane, etc. -- but he did not and landed both canopies without incident. I said that the cypres "could" have saved his life if he did not pull when he did -- using the hypothetical situation that he did not hear the last siren and had complete loss of altitude awareness. I think we both have valid points, using 'what if' scenerios. I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdesilets 0 #15 January 2, 2004 I disagree with these instructors and agree with the others who commented. It is taught on large formation skyding to STAY with the formation (not under it) until the altitude of the first wave and track to their assigned pull altitude, verify you have clear airspace (side to side, down, up, front), wave off, and pull. To just get the heck out of dodge (E.g. start tracking early) is a bad thing. At break off no one knows where the hell you are and you don't know where anyone else is. Get outside from under the formation and practice "popping up" (so you are no longer low) to the formation until the correct time to track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites taipan 0 #16 January 2, 2004 I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. Totally agree here. I would like to add, if someone was low and unable to get back to base I would want them to get the hell out of my way early so I would be safe. I have two eyes but they are not perfect when trying to see someone under me camouflaged against the ground. Safety tip- If low get out of eveyones space. Track off early(not on heading). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdesilets 0 #14 January 2, 2004 Not sure how you figure that his main would be open at ~1500'? He said that he was in a track as his dytter siren went off at (1500'), then he stopped tracking, dumped, and his sabre2 snivelled a bit.. and he was in the saddle a little under 1000'. You said that his cypres "could" have cost him his life, using the hypotherical situation (and you ragged on me for throwing out a hypothetical situation ) that he had a main/reserve entanglement, down plane, etc. -- but he did not and landed both canopies without incident. I said that the cypres "could" have saved his life if he did not pull when he did -- using the hypothetical situation that he did not hear the last siren and had complete loss of altitude awareness. I think we both have valid points, using 'what if' scenerios. I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdesilets 0 #15 January 2, 2004 I disagree with these instructors and agree with the others who commented. It is taught on large formation skyding to STAY with the formation (not under it) until the altitude of the first wave and track to their assigned pull altitude, verify you have clear airspace (side to side, down, up, front), wave off, and pull. To just get the heck out of dodge (E.g. start tracking early) is a bad thing. At break off no one knows where the hell you are and you don't know where anyone else is. Get outside from under the formation and practice "popping up" (so you are no longer low) to the formation until the correct time to track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taipan 0 #16 January 2, 2004 I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. Totally agree here. I would like to add, if someone was low and unable to get back to base I would want them to get the hell out of my way early so I would be safe. I have two eyes but they are not perfect when trying to see someone under me camouflaged against the ground. Safety tip- If low get out of eveyones space. Track off early(not on heading). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #17 January 2, 2004 This probably should be another thread, but I believe most big way organizers will tell you not to track early if you go low. It is unsafe. Good formation skydivers will know you are low, and keep track of you during breakoff just like they keep track of all the other people in their vicinity. You just blend into the first wave of trackers like someone who is on level, but out of the formation. Tracking away early makes it impossible for the group to know where you are. If you manage to get 2500 feet low on a formation, you are probably not on your belly. You would be about 12 seconds lower than everyone else. That's quite an accomplishment. You would rock at hybrids. Most people who go low will stay within 100 feet of a formation, usually much closer. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taipan 0 #18 January 2, 2004 I agree with that regarding experienced jumpers. However this was a starcrest load so i'm guessing it could have had other inexperienced jumpers on it as well. With these variables the question would be best asked of the dzso at the time of organizing whether it would be best to leave early if you go low or wait to planned break off altitude before you start tracking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 January 2, 2004 ... whether it would be best to leave early if you go low or wait to planned break off altitude before you start tracking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior jumpers expect you to - hang out off to the side of the formation and - start tracking at the same time as the first wave. Any other scenario only complicates the dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #20 January 2, 2004 Quote I would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment My $.02.. I know I'm new and all, but it seems to me that another lesson that should have been learned is, when so low than your siren is blaring, pull the reserve, not the main, then you don't have to worry about that pesky cypress fire and two canopies overhead, entanglements etc. I mean, that's what my instructors told me to do if I ever found myself that low... Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #21 January 2, 2004 QuoteNot sure how you figure that his main would be open at ~1500'? He said that he was in a track as his dytter siren went off at (1500'), then he stopped tracking, dumped, and his sabre2 snivelled a bit.. and he was in the saddle a little under 1000'. Okay then, he would have been under his main then at a little under 1k in this scenario instead, thanks for the 'correction' there. But again, please tell me how this illustrates at all then, how his Cypres almost saved him?? Actually though, you don't have to answer that, because you've now "got it" with what you posted here: QuoteI would submit that the lessons are a) don't loose track of altitude b) understand the problems that an ADD can cause c) value the fact that an AAD can save your life and is worth the investment Which is all I was really looking for. Note that in your earlier response you had completely omitted (your now inserted) letter "b)". Again, I just don't think this particular specific incident was the most appropriate one to whip out as the "poster child" for advocating AAD's. You & I don't disagree. Sorry though that you thought it was otherwise "ragging". Okay, then, in review, maybe it was. ...Just a little Good debate resultant though & points I think very well taken & now gotten accross. Thank you for participating! Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdesilets 0 #22 January 2, 2004 Yes, that is what I like about these forums is that you always get other prespectives. Indeed I did (inadvertantly) omit that fact in my original response. When I read the original post and responded I was just thinking about him [hypotheticallc] not hearing the siren like he did not hear the higher tone and thought 'wow, good thing he had a cypres'.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #23 January 2, 2004 Quote I know I'm new and all, but it seems to me that another lesson that should have been learned is, when so low than your siren is blaring, pull the reserve, not the main, ... Muscle memorry will often dictate how you respond to the realizing you are low scenario. Most people when the find themselves very close to the ground immeadiatly pull the main. It's a conditioned response. Pulling the reserve is a conditioned response to a malfunction. I've been so low that the moment the main pilot chute was out of the pouch, I wished I'd pulled the reserve. When I say low, I mean very low. I didn't have a cypres yet as they were not well known at the time. I only know one person (I'm sure there are plenty more) that had the presence of mind to realize he was too low and pulled his reserve. He beat his cypres cutter but the cypress still fired. A simple answer to your suggestion is... Yes, pull the reserve if you find yourself extremely low. The complicated answer is, train yourself to respond with a reserve pull when finding yourself extremely low.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #24 January 2, 2004 Donovan, Scurmpot missed the mark here. It was not the cypres or two canopies out that is/was the problem. Going low is/was the problem. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #25 January 2, 2004 QuoteDonovan, Scurmpot missed the mark here. It was not the cypres or two canopies out that is/was the problem. Going low is/was the problem. I think that's actually precisely what I said in my initial post there, J.E.... QuoteNot that the Cypres is "at fault" in EITHER WAY at all in this incident. It is clearly, as the jumper notes himself: his loss off altitude awareness,... Later on, yes indeed I did take some issue with another poster's trying to make this a "BANNER CASE EXAMPLE" in of itself, for Cypres advocacy! I think that Donavan was perhaps answering someone elses post (darn all that cross-reading that has to take place sometimes) when and after he had already hit "Reply" to mine. He cut out and pasted the OTHER posters line quoted within my response when replying to me! Check it out in chronological order. You & I are actually on exactly the same page here! Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
