lowbie says she don't need no steenking cypress...

[pds 0]

i have no question about the right to jump sans aad. what is rubbing me the wrong way is someone with limited experience making such a strong statement. i am not even sure she has had any kind of malfunction yet. my 3 cutaways were in my first 35 jumps. i KNOW what a mal is and i KNOW that when in doubt i can get it out. am i being an overbearing asshole by wanting to hedge the bet for someone who hasnt yet made that kind of decision?

namaste, motherfucker.

[Shark 0]

You may want to refer her to your local S&TA.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Well, maybe she can't afford it, or justify the cost.? I haven't jumped with a cypres since I was off student status. I spent a lot of $$ getting into this sport and just don't have a grand to spend on a cypres. I know they are insurance,... but at this time, I can't justify the cost of one vs the chance that i'll need one. Personally, i'm more afraid of being knocked out in freefall than not pulling... but that could just be my own ignorance. Hopefully i'll have the $$ and sense to buy one before that ever happens. That time is just not right now. I know the risks. As long as she is aware of the risk she is taking out there, there isn't really much else you can tell her, right?

Angela.

[pilotdave 0]

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People do get knocked out in freefall. I witnessed this about a year ago in Perris. My posting about it is here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=340256

Unfortunately ftp.skydivingmovies.com is down, so you can't download the video.

It is very compelling "get a cypres" footage.

Video is temporarily available HERE.

Dave

[PhillyKev 0]

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The bottomline is that it would probably save your life if you lose altitude awareness.

Yep, but admit thats why you got it...Not the old story that you are afraid the "other guy" is going to knock you out.

I have no problem with them...

I have a problem with peoples attitudes about them..And people relying on them.

If you can admit that you have it incase you screw up...I don't have a problem.

But the simple fact is that most say its to save them from the other guy...And the facts show that MOST saves the guy was awake, and just screwed up.

That's why I got mine. I don't rely on it. I jump as if I don't have it (with the exception of keeping in mind that it's there in case I find myself low I'll go for the reserve to avoid 2 out). But basically, it's a back up to me. I don't ever have any intention of screwing up that badly that I don't pull. But other people who have said the same thing went and did that anyway. So....I have it, I'll probably never need it, but it's there.

If it ever fires....I doubt I'd ever jump again. I believe I have the ability to do what I need to do every time I do it. Otherwise I wouldn't skydive. I also believe in "shit happens". All I know is, if that shit ever happened to me, I'd go to Germany, kiss everyone at SSK full on the mouth, and sell my rig.

[billvon 2,990]

>what is rubbing me the wrong way is someone with limited
>experience making such a strong statement.

It's been my experience that the average jumper gains wisdom, skill and maturity very rapidly until around jump 100 or so. From jump 100-300 they know just about everything, which is important since they generally don't take advice at this stage. They'll have reasons for everything they do, including getting on 60-ways, jumping tiny canopies and jumping wingsuits without the 'normal' amount of experience.

Shortly after jump 300 they start to realize they don't know _quite_ as much as they think they do. It's at this point that they really start learning.

[benny 0]

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The question was - why not take as much risk as possible out of the equation? Are you always going to jump a student canopy? Helmet? No RW, no freefly, no CRW? After all its about making it safe right?

W

ok, so maybe my question was wrong, i mean, if we all eliminated as much risk as possible we'd all just stay in bed all day. But wait, then our bodies would simply atrophy and we'd waste away sooner than if we had taken some perceived risk. Oh well, damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose. What do I know anyway, I don't. I'm just loving it. Blue skies!

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[cesslon 0]

there is atleast 5 saves in the incident forum where poeple were KO'd and had a cypress fire

I guess its like having a smoke alarm in ya house

all new houses built in australia must have them by law
but no1 i know has had a house burn down and smoke alarm save them , thats only stuff i see on the news

M@

[FrogNog 1]

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I spent a lot of $$ getting into this sport and just don't have a grand to spend on a cypres. I know they are insurance,... but at this time, I can't justify the cost of one vs the chance that i'll need one.

I went through this same thinking myself, but then convinced myself that in my post-graduation "career", my time of highest risk would be right after I got off student status and got my own gear. So I'm coughing up the extra dough for the insurance, delaying my rig by a few months. (Winter is the perfect time to do this in these parts.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Push 0]

The people speaking the loudest are usually the ones least qualified.

My .02 is that I jumped for a while on my rig with no Cypres because I felt confident I can handle jumping for a couple of weeks until I got the thing and pull. Well, the thing got held off in customs and I kept jumping. I started learning to sitfly without a Cypres or a Dytter, which I really regret now. I didn't think much of it then.

I jump with it primarily to give my parents peace of mind. I trust myself to pull, otherwise I wouldn't skydive, but people with more experience told me it's a good idea, so I always use it. Finally, I wear it because I'd rather find out I screwed up while standing dazed in some field somewhere instead of from St Peter at the pearly gates. I'd jump without one if I had to, but not for long. Maybe after 500 or so jumps my comfort level will change, but that's it right now.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Ron 10]

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there is atleast 5 saves in the incident forum where poeple were KO'd and had a cypress fire

How many were knocked out by someone else? And how many were them doing something stupid?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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because she will NEVER not pull. when i start to formulate a response i get really confused and angry and sad. help me out here guys.

Well, we do have the freedom to choose for ourselves what equipment we wish to use, as post-student jumpers, and I wouldn't want to dictate otherwise.

But if you want to make a strong case in your favor, find someone with a collection of Parachutist magazines from 20 years ago. The Incident Report columns were chock full of jumpers burning in without pulling a reserve. Copy those pages. Highlight the relevant incidents. Slip them into her gear bag where she won't find them until she gets home.

[Brian425 0]

I only have 13 jumps. I know my knowledge is limited. I can only say that from my training, I can see no valid reason for a fun jumper to jump without some sort of AAD.

My Cypress was my first purchase for my rig. I see it as cheap insurance against my own or possibly other people's mistakes.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[KCJumper 0]

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because she will NEVER not pull. when i start to formulate a response i get really confused and angry and sad. help me out here guys.

Ok so i have never jumped without a cypress but as far as jumping without one. No i won't do that. Not that i don't think i won't ever pull. It's that i have personally been on a freefly jump with a jumper who had about 900 jumps, most of those being freefly. I was sit flying and he was head down. He was doing his thing when our camera man floated into the group and knocked him unconscious. It's not that he ever intended not to pull but he was unable to. He didn't come to until he was about to land.
So as far as not using one because you will always pull. There will always be a chance for you not to pull. Just my two cents on the topic.

Patrick

[DanglesOZQld 0]

I have nearly been killed by an RSL because at the time it was a mandatory piece of safety equipment to have whilst you are jumping. I have never had an AAD and in the time I have been jumping due to licence levels etc I have never been required to wear one either. However rules are there for a reason and I have personally seen at least one Cypres save from a person with a similar attitude to the girl you are talking about. I do not agree with RSL's but think up to a certain licence level a Cypres should be mandatory as the APF is bringing into being in Australia. From my short 11 years jumping I have found that there are two things that kill jumpers , these are inexperience and complacency. This is not a sport that is forgiving much like flying also. Too many of my friends (more than jumping!) have been killed trying to get home in weather they should not have been flying in and breaking the very rules that were made and put into practise to keep them alive. I have once flown and nearly been caught up in the same circumstance. We have stopped many newbie jumpers hurting themselves by jumping a canopy that is well above their ability but they have easily found another DZ that will let them jump it. So be it , and some of these jumpers I have been good friends with. You can only do as much as you can , tell them the pros and cons of what they are doing and if they still jump elsewhere then you are out of options. I have turned into Mr Shithead by not letting ex students do what they feel like on more than one jump and telling the CI on the rare times he misses them doing something they should not. Maybe they will say thanks in the long run , maybe not. I would rather them hate me and still be around to say so. Thats the nature of the beast. As for the experienced jumpers or reasonably current - put yourself in the shoes of the person who is the DZSO, it is not an easy job but things would surely turn to hell rather quickly without them there. BSBD -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[koz2000 1]

Recently I was doing a freefly jump, and the guy was flying very stable in a sit. I stayed in pretty close to him. His audibles were apparently set higher than mine as he broke off a few hundred feet before. However when he broke off instead of maintaining his speed and gaining lateral distance, he did a half back "twist-flop" so his feet came straight toward my head. Of course his leg and my head met about 10 miles a hour difference in speed. It didn't knock me out but I was definitely dazed. I was able to pull on my own but having that AAD is a good relief. With nearly 1600 freefly jumps you would think I could break off from a two-way with no incident. Point being, tell your lo-lobie friend SHIT DOES HAPPEN. When you need it you'll pay whatever it costs. BTW, my jumps 100-300 were made in the stupid mindset that I was good enough to pull dumbass!

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[koz2000 1]

Also the cost issue is becoming less a factor. I recently sold a cypres with a few years left and all checks done for $300. I have seen plently in the classifieds for $300-$600. And of course if the Vigil performs as advertised that $1200 buck is only a one time deal.

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[Zoter 0]

Just my 2 cents.....
I'm definately of the same mindset as your friend in that I have NO DOUBTS whatsover I won't pull that silver thingy !! harness shifts during cutaway, spnning with High G, dislocated shoulder.....whatever it is I just KNOW i am going to find and pull that handle.
But I wont jump without a Cypres....just wont...Every jump is made with a mindset of 'forget your AAD is there' and do everything like it aint there ( low alti pull decisions notwithstanding)
Im not a sheep following the herd ..I make the decision because I think its the best thing to do.....sure your friend may not be jumping in proximity to others...she aint gonna get knocked out right???
Ever banged your head diving out? ( damn those Skyvan exits with us 6footers ) or I have read of incidents of people hitting other parts of the plane on exit)...or what if you are completely on your own and some dude comes outta nowhere and Whammo!..it has happened to me and luckliy was not knocked out, but it could happen..
And what if you have a prem.opening during a freefly that stuffs the canopy up and shakes you up enough to make you lose conciousness.....
Damn...why wouldnt anybody want a proven system for these admittedly rare situations....I call that reckless.

[Remster 30]

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I can see no valid reason for a fun jumper to jump without some sort of AAD.

CReW, water landings (yea yea yea they are water resistant, but I'd rather not dunk one if I plan on landing in water). These are just 2 off the top of my head.

Never say never.

Remster

[mr2mk1g 10]

Two cypres fires I know of this season - one at my home DZ, one in the US.

1st guy is hit in freefall diving to a formation; general consensus of oppinion is he was on a dive above is experiance level: He was doing something dumb.

2nd guy hits his head on tail during emergancy exit. No one else did - he did a student exit and jumped up while exiting during a climbing pass and thats why he hit his head: He was doing something dumb.

But the problem is you don't always/often don't know something is dumb until after it happens (if you do then more fool you). You can say "I aint gonna do anything dumb" all you like, but the guy who hit his head on the tail thought he was doing a nice stable exit for a hop+pop... only afterwards did he find out it was the wrong thing to do. No one plans to do something dumb, dumb stuff just happens. An AAD will save you from some of that dumb stuff if you're lucky.

So long as your friend makes up their mind based on the information - fine... its a free world and they can choose to do that. If they are doing it on only some of the info then thats bad juju, educate them. If they still come to a decision other than yours - then you'll just have to accept that, thats their prerogative.

[Ron 10]

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1st guy is hit in freefall diving to a formation; general consensus of oppinion is he was on a dive above is experiance level: He was doing something dumb.

And if I remember correctly a few folks got off that dive since he was on it....They didn't need a CYPRES. He was seen as a danger and they chose not to jump with him in that way (letting him swoop).

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2nd guy hits his head on tail during emergancy exit. No one else did - he did a student exit and jumped up while exiting during a climbing pass and thats why he hit his head: He was doing something dumb.

Hit his head on a climbing pass with the door side engine at full power. Did a posied exit and jumped up. The other people in the King Air had no problem.

Both these show that while yes the person was knocked out...they did something stupid.

Yes, you can't control everything, and stupid things happen. But the people who got off the first dive, and the others in the Kinig Air show that by using better training, and better decisions...You can lower the chance of needing a CYPRES.

Again I think they are great, and in fact I have one....But I also use my head to prevent me needed to be saved by the cool toy.....

And everyone should.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mr2mk1g 10]

at last... we share exactly the same sentiments

[billvon 2,990]

>Ever banged your head diving out?

Well, yeah, but I almost always wear a helmet. An AAD is arguably a good backup, but it's better to not hit your head to begin with, and protect it so that such an impact is not incapacitating.

>( damn those Skyvan exits with us 6footers )

Do you still jump skyvans? If so, why? As I said before, cypreses are great, but if they make you comfortable enough to get on a plane that's more of a risk to you, they may do more harm than good.

>or what if you are completely on your own and some dude comes
> outta nowhere and Whammo!..it has happened to me and luckliy
> was not knocked out, but it could happen..

I know this is why everyone _gets_ a cypres, but if you ever need yours, it will probably be because you forgot to pull.

>And what if you have a prem.opening during a freefly that stuffs the
> canopy up and shakes you up enough to make you lose
> conciousness.....

??? I hope you don't think your cypres will do a damn thing for you if you are unconscious under canopy.

[skydivegirl 0]

I'm sure glad Caryn had her cypres when this happened!

Pink Mafia Sis #26

[freakydiver 0]

Ahh back to the argument - that could've also been prevented imho.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --