Lowest safe chop altitude?

[FreeDiver 0]

Howdy,

so there you are at 1000ft and your canopy suddenly isn't flying like it should be flying... Would you chop? (suppose you would definately chop at 3k)

This is just a hypothetical situation. To me 1000ft definately looks survivable but I hear alot of people say it could be too low?????


thanks

[marks 0]

well it depends....

if i cannot survive with the canopy i got i would most definatly chop it at 1000 ft

[quade 4]

So, let me get this right . . . at 1800 it was flying fine.

1700 fine, 1600 . . . 1100 . . .

Then at 1000, it's a ball of shit and if you don't cut it away and pull your reserve you'll die.

Well, I guess that about answers that question.

Is it a -safe- altitude at which to cutaway and deploy your reserve . . . well, not as safe as say, 1800, but a lot safer than say 350.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[marks 0]

lmao...

[Kris 0]

Quote

well it depends....

if i cannot survive with the canopy i got i would most definatly chop it at 1000 ft

Same here. I would have no problems having to pull a chop at 1000.

Under 700 though, and depending on the mal, I'm probably going to keep the main and fire the reserve. Hopefully I'll be able to pull off a canopy transfer, but if nothing else I'm going to get as much fabric over my head as possible.

Out of 3 reserve rides though, the lowest I've been in the saddle on a reserve was 1500.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[markbaur 0]

FreeDiver has a reasonable question that deserves a better answer.

It doesn't matter where you draw the line between what's likely landable and what's likely unlandable. There will always be situations where you'll regret the decision you made at decision altitude. For example, suppose you were taught to steer using the rear risers in case of a broken steering line. That's a landable canopy, right? But what should you do if you then use up your upper body strength maneuvering below decision altitude, and you can no longer steer or flare your canopy?

The SIM suggests a 2500' decision altitude, and also a 1000' do-not-cutaway-below altitude (below which your best option is probably to just pull the reserve ripcord, without cutting away). The hazard to cutting away as low as 1000 feet is not that the reserve will fail to open in time -- it probably will -- but that you won't have many options for where to land.

Even so, I'd rather land on any obstacle with a functioning parachute than to land on the smoothest dz with a non-functioning one. (Grammer police can fix antecedents and dangling participles if they wish.)

Mark

[quade 4]

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FreeDiver has a reasonable question that deserves a better answer.

Fair enough, let's go to the source.

http://uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section5.htm#51e

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c. You should decide upon and take the appropriate actions by a predetermined altitude:

(1) Students and A-license holders: 2,500 feet.

(2) B-D license holders: 1,800 feet.


d. At some point during descent under a partial malfunction, it becomes too low for a safe cutaway and you must deploy the reserve without cutting away.

e. Consider the operating range of the automatic activation device when determining your personal malfunction response altitudes.

I see no -specific- altitude listed as a "do-not-cutaway-below altitude". It appears you had suggested 1000 AGL.

Do you have a reference for that?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

Quote

So, let me get this right . . . at 1800 it was flying fine.

1700 fine, 1600 . . . 1100 . . .

Then at 1000, it's a ball of shit and if you don't cut it away and pull your reserve you'll die.

Well, I guess that about answers that question.

While I suppose if your very narrowed minded this might seem unreal. However experience tells us that in the last two years at least two people have died from developing line twist below 1000 ft. and of course there is a video out there from the WFFC where someone flew through a canopy below 1000 ft and the jumper cut away and deployed a reserve which he landed under safely. So it has happened and will happen again.
Good question and definitely food for thought!

[quade 4]

Not suggesting it doesn't happen.

Was suggesting that if it's unlandable . . . you do what you have to do to save your life.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mjosparky 4]

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you do what you have to do to save your life.

There are so many variables to a question like this that the line above is about the best answer.
Learn as much as you can about everything you can and try like hell to avoid the situation.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[TomAiello 26]

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So, let me get this right . . . at 1800 it was flying fine.

1700 fine, 1600 . . . 1100 . . .

Then at 1000, it's a ball of shit and if you don't cut it away and pull your reserve you'll die.

I actually know a guy who had that happen. He was fooling around with a high performance canopy at "high" altitude (around 2000'), and ended up winding it up into a ball of shit around 1100'. He chopped it.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[quade 4]

And I know of people that have done similar things as well.

I've also seen canopy collisions below 1000 that have required reserve deployments.

You do what you have to do.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[GravityGirl 0]

If I can get the attachment right....

....check out this video of a self-induced line twist at just over 1000 feet.

Yes. She cuts away and pulles her reserve in plenty of time.

http://madstyle.net/videos/lisa_1st_rsrv.mpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Nightingale 0]

I was taught during AFF not to pull red below 1000, and just go for silver.

not sure if this changes as you get more advanced with different canopies and all that.

[quade 4]

You're right, that's in the Category A part of the Integrated Student Program portion of the Skydiver's Information Manual.


http://uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/Section4CatA.htm


I am not sure that I agree with that in all situations for all (more experienced) skydivers.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TomAiello 26]

Here is the one I was talking about. There were some "complications" with the reserve pull (gloves combined with handles getting sucked into an early prototype wingsuit). The reserve is deployed relatively low.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[quade 4]

Tell me again why people fly canopies like that?

Begeezus . . . that's scary.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,070]

If you chop with a standard RSL above about 500 feet, you will probably get an inflated reserve before impact. There will be no time to set up a landing pattern (or even choose a landing area) but you will probably impact at normal canopy speeds rather than at terminal. If you chop below 200 feet, you may not get an inflated canopy before impact.

So would I chop at 1000 feet? Depends. Am I over the desert, with decent landing areas everywhere and an unlandable main? Then I would. If I was over a power plant and thought I could wrestle the main into the landing area? Then probably not.

[Ron 10]

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This is just a hypothetical situation. To me 1000ft definately looks survivable but I hear alot of people say it could be too low?????

I have cutaway at 700 feet before....(Long story do a search if you care). I cutaway and as soon as I felt myself drop I pulled the Reserve as I rolled into the relative wind.

Simple fact is that around 500 feet I would most likley cutaway with a damn near Left then Right pull. (Yes, I know its backwards)

700-1000 gunslinger pull. both at same time.

Above 1,000 normal chop.

But this is MY RESERVE PROCEDURE!!!!!!!

It has worked for me, and I have used it 6 times.

YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY....AND IN FACT YOU MAY DIE FOLLOWING THIS ADVICE!!!!!!

Talk to your friendly local S&TA, Rigger and Instructors for the final word.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[markbaur 0]

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Do you have a reference for that?

My reference for the do-not-cutaway-below altitude is SIm Section 4, Category A, subsection H (equipment emergency procedures).

Mark

[riggerrob 643]

USPA, CSPA, BPA, etc have such high recommended cutaway altitudes because malfunctioning parachutes descend far faster than skydivers' brains. The result is people - under malfunctions - believe they are far higher than they really are. There is also the time lag between glancing at an altimeter and the numbers registering on the brain.

That is why I prefer to rely on the Mark I eyeball when things get scary. Over the years (4,000 skydives) I have developed mental pictures of what the ground looks like from 5,000, 3,000, 2,000 and 1,000 feet.

[quade 4]

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My reference for the do-not-cutaway-below altitude is SIm Section 4, Category A, subsection H (equipment emergency procedures).

I quoted that as well.

Do you believe that should apply to all skydivers under all circumstances?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[markbaur 0]

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Do you believe that should apply to all skydivers under all circumstances?

No. We all know of or can imagine reasonable situations where an alternative might be better. But rather than treat each situation as unique, requiring time (and altitude) for analysis and response, we still need general rules that apply to most situations.

Mark

[quade 4]

And you believe that altitude is 1,000 AGL?

Fair enough.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lug 4]

If I was at or above 1,000’ with out a laudable parachute, I would cut-away and pull reserve, most likely vary close together but the situation at the time would weigh heavily on how close together the handles are pulled. As for being below 1,000’ I would fallow the SIM’s and pull my reserve.

Memento Mori