kneedragon 0 #1 January 2, 2004 Greetings and Happy New Year. My fledgling 4-way team, on which I fly Point, normally jumps and competes out of an Otter. Our local DZ has been importing a King Air for use during these winter months in which jumper turn-out is low and I am finding that I am struggling, at best, to front-float out of the King Air. I've never had a problem out of an Otter, but the increased ground speed and prop. blast is throwing me a$$ akimbo almost every single time. The few times I've been able to keep it together have still been borderline unstable and not conducive to an immediate key. Our team would be screwed if we had to compete out of a King Air. I realize that not seeing my exits makes it difficult to address my situation specifically, therefore, I'm hoping for ANY feedback, strategies, focal points, or just plain advice on what works for you or your team mate. My biggest concern is not that I'm botching the exits, it's that I don't know why and therefore can't make corrections. I need to start with the basics. Thanks for any tips. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 2, 2004 Think of "pasting" yourself against the side of the plane. Push your arm out and try to make yourself aerodynamic and against the plane. If you do it right, the propblast will basically push you against the plane and it'll help you stay in place. You're right, its a whole nuther animal then a S. Otter.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #3 January 2, 2004 When I have flown point out of the King Air, what I have done is bend a lot deeper at the right knee than what I normally do out of the Twin Otter. Instead of looking OVER my right shoulder for exit count (as in most point exits from the T/O) I will be looking UNDER/in from my and the centers armpit. "GO" feels maybe a split second shade earlier and more assertive/aggressive "UP" and out than the T/O too. I am fairly tall (6'1"), so maybe this is just more a function of that, relative to door size, but this is what has worked successfully for me. Also, by bending knee (back stays relatively straight) deeper, it brings you closer to the A/C in the door (similar to Aggie Dave's suggestion), but without being "plastered" body-length long to the fusealage, which I have found instead can weaken your launch/subject your presentation to more hap-hazard net results. Try both & see which works best for you. There was a training tape put out by the knights that addressed individual slot K/A launches too (actually covered several different A/C). Can't remember the name of that or where I put my hands on it, but that can be an invaluable resource if you can find it. Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blazetailman 0 #4 January 2, 2004 Trying any or all exits out of a king air is difficult at best. Welcome to the club of trying to do 4way exits out of KA. Anything besides a standard king air exit its not a great 4way training plane for exits. Are you guys taking the tail of a half beat early and keep point on of the last to leave the plane or are you peeling front float off first?www.canopyflightcenter.com www.skydivesac.com www.guanofreefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #5 January 2, 2004 QuoteAre you guys taking the tail of a half beat early and keep point on of the last to leave the plane or are you peeling front float off first? I have always started front float 1st, in the way I described (personally) doing this. Maybe not even quite a half-beat. Something more along the lines of a seven-eights for those more musically inclined. So I wouldn't quite call it "peeling" him off. Just further "FYI". As in almost any A/C 4-way exit, the group actually leaving effectively as a unit is usually best. The way to get that to occur is called "technique". Doing it right is called "style". (or is that the other way around?) I can oft times have plenty of the 1st with still nearly NONE as a result, of the latter! FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blazetailman 0 #6 January 2, 2004 QuoteI have always started front float 1st, in the way I Just further "FYI". As in almost any A/C 4-way exit, the group actually leaving effectively as a unit is usually best. The way to get that to occur is called "technique". Doing it right is called "style". (or is that the other way around?) I can oft times have plenty of the 1st with still nearly NONE as a result, of the latter! FWIW. Well when it comes to xits there are many ways. And most of them are all hogwash. yes leaving as a unit is quite important. Thats why is call a chunk or relative work. But there are advantages of having the tail be off the plane, down and out, strecthing the formation off the formation so it can fly. Instead of having front float trying to leave with the group and smashing into the center postion. I think this technique is also advantagous to normal RW exits, too. I've applied it to all levels of RW organizing I do and had great result with it. Why do we have an exit that the front leaves first. It works requires a lot of practice and can be done. But someone decided to look at the mechanics and found a easier method to make the same thing happen. Sometimes we keep teaching thins the same old way beacuse that's how its done. Or that's how we do it. That's how I was taught. Instead of Doing it the smoothest way. My 2 bits... on exit tail leaves out and down a half beat early streatching the formation out while front stays on the plane presenting to the propblast.www.canopyflightcenter.com www.skydivesac.com www.guanofreefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #7 January 2, 2004 Interesting that this is precisely how I do my 4-ways out of the Otter. "Stretching" the chunk out of the King Air by "pulling it off" with the tail dropping straight down (by my practice ...not just what I've always been told) has instead resulted in the point having a propensity to flip under, due to his back being presented into the wind (prop-blast) by having to "follow". Maybe this entire thread needs to be moved into the R/W section where others might be able to chime in here more specifically on further tips and techniques accordingly. I may have to try/practice more "your way" to see if this can more consistently work. You're right, "my way" indeed took a bit of practice, but I can pretty much guarantee you I can in fact "NAIL IT" every time now as a result, with even various groups, when I am flying point and jumping 4-way this way out of the K/A. Tell me what the point specifically does on your exit then, and I will be most happy to try it too! ...Hopefully all this is at least giving 'kneedragon' some fodder to consider here that he was looking for. If need be, we can take our debate to PM, if we get too individually style-focus convoluted here blaze. I do appreciate hearing your perspective/opinion/offering on this too though. ---THANKS! Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blazetailman 0 #8 January 2, 2004 Cool beans Grant, maybe it should be moved to RW forum. With out writing the blow by blow for point's exit, it sounds like you have your shoulders set parrallel to the door frame. Is this correct? Front float, should have their body set 45degrees to the dor frame and the left shoulder and chest set to the relitive wind and prop blast. On exit for the general exits they basicall hop off as the are pulled with the exit off the plane. The left knee and hips are also placed in the wind similar to the the shoulders. Be slightly chest heavy and think about driving into the relative wind and bit to keep from being floped back into the wind. I know prop blast can be pretty powerful facing forward with the chest in the wind but when you get a good stance, its less work on the exit for them. Just step off and present to the wind.www.canopyflightcenter.com www.skydivesac.com www.guanofreefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jverley 1 #9 January 2, 2004 The one time my team was forced to use a King Air instead of an otter, our coach made a point of having us just launch one bullet proof exit for the entire camp. (We used a satellite). His argument was that since you will not be competing in this aircraft, no reason to learn all the details about all the launches. Instead we worked on our sub-terminal transitions to the first point. Once we had our Otter back we went back to the normal variety of exits.John Arizona Hiking Trails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kneedragon 0 #10 January 2, 2004 Much of this has been very helpful and I'm appreciative of everyone's thoughts and time. I am interested in feedback on people's individual techniques-- I figure the more tools I'm armed with the more options in my pocket to make this work. The body position info. in particular has given me some things to experiment with. 'blazetailman' mentioned a set-up that might help prevent getting tossed over the back of the formation, which of my many difficulties has been the most consistent. On one jump yesterday (which I had the misfortune of having on video) I look like a rag doll getting swung over the back of the OC. Focusing on driving into the relative wind; use it instead of being used by it is something I will experiment with. Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #11 January 3, 2004 I agree totaly with John (jverley). If your having problems with your exits from the King Air use a bullet proof exit and transition on the hill to your first point. You''ll have plenty of time to train for different exits off the Otter when it's back for the season, don't waste your jumps from the King trying to master different point exits because you'll probably never see the Nationals or World Meet from a KA. It's hard climbing out but have your team mate give you a helping push and stay close to the plane. Make you push off strong and stay locked out solid on exit. The faster air speed will help for a faster transition on the hill if you all exit tight and together. Keep the call on the outside of the plane too, as it's hard for the front float to see an inside count at times.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #12 January 3, 2004 It depends on the exit, but when I flew point on a 4-way team out of a king air..... I always cheated a little. I would face my center point to the prop as much as possible, then drop back a little (away from the fuselage) to give outside center some of that prop blast. That way you are not blown into the center. Deep knee and a powerful up and out launch. Possible side effects: big left arm and right thigh ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
