Make sure you READ the waiver!

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Negligence - failure to act with the prudence that a reasonable person would exercise under the same circumstances

I would not sue in this instance...I accept the risks, I agreed not to sue. My family will honor the agreement not to sue

GROSS NEGLIGENCE - Failure to use even the slightest amount of care in a way that shows Recklessness or willful disregard for the safety of others.

In this case you should sue. It's your civic duty to sue. You make the industry and your friends safer. No waiver anywhere would ask you to accept an act of Gross Negligence.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[livnbored 0]

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Yeah, I totally agree. Riggers need to fess up and take responsibility for their rigging, mechanics need to fess up and take responsibility for their maintenance, pilots need to take responsibility for their flying, etc etc etc.
...
[for all who missed it, that's sacasm]

I think you draw a good and reasonable point and I like it. Just the same, who takes responsibility for me skydiving?

[billvon 2,991]

>In this case you should sue. It's your civic duty to sue.

It's your moral duty to keep your word.

[Nullified 0]

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Sometimes I think we have to wonder what the world is coming to. People seem less and less to want to take any responsibility for themselves.

Hmmm, with an attitude like that, I'm surprised that you're not on the other side of this debate.

I mean, isn't the waiver in effect saying, "We won't be held responsible for our own fuckups that kill or injur you, even if we knew that we were fucking up and just didn't care"???

Interesting perspective.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[billvon 2,991]

>I mean, isn't the waiver in effect saying, "We won't be held
> responsible for our own fuckups that kill or injur you, even if we
> knew that we were fucking up and just didn't care"???

That's exactly right! And if you have a problem with that attitude (which is certainly a selfish one) then the time to decide that is BEFORE YOU SIGN THE WAIVER.

[Nullified 0]

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>In this case you should sue. It's your civic duty to sue.

It's your moral duty to keep your word.

As I stated in another post, I agree 99.9% of the time with this.

But, if I have a Son and swear to him that I'll never hit him, and then at 16 years old he's out of his mind on crack and comes at me with a knife, guess what...I'll knock him on his ass.

Don't fool yourself into believeing that anything is unconditional. No promise, no great love, nothing. There IS a line that can be crossed.

Stay safe,
Mike

Edited for spelling

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[billvon 2,991]

>But, if I have a Son and sware to him that I'll never hit him, and
> then at 16 years old he's out of his mind on crack and comes at me
> with a knife, guess what...I'll knock him on his ass.

If he gave you a form, and it said "I agree to not hit you even if you're strung out on drugs and you attack me with intent to kill me" - would you sign it? If not, why not?

Often in life you don't get warnings about what your kids will do, about what nature will throw at you, about what chance has in store for you. Skydiving's an exception. There's a form you sign that tells you EXACTLY what can happen. You may decide that you would sue them if they hired a drunken fool as a pilot and didn't repack their reserves; there's absolutely no problem with that. The solution - don't sign the waiver. Don't wait until you're on the plane with a moldy reserve and drunk pilot to decide you don't want to take those risks.

If your answer is "but I really want to jump; everyone ignores the waiver!" then realize that you are essentially lying to get what you want. You don't really agree, but your signature lets you get what you want, and you know you can legally back out of your word later.

[Nullified 0]

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>I mean, isn't the waiver in effect saying, "We won't be held
> responsible for our own fuckups that kill or injur you, even if we
> knew that we were fucking up and just didn't care"???

That's exactly right! And if you have a problem with that attitude (which is certainly a selfish one) then the time to decide that is BEFORE YOU SIGN THE WAIVER.

I do indeed have a problem with that attitude.
As I also posted in the reply from which you quoted me, there is a line.
If the DZO knew that the pilot was on crack, didn't care, and I end up injured as a result, that is where the line is crossed.
Anyone who would knowingly allow that situation to exist isn't worth keeping a promise to. They'd be the trash of the earth and I'd be quite morally comfortable suing their asses off, getting them out of the business and keeping them out of the business for the rest of their pathetic lives.
Fuckups are one thing...willingly allowing a deathtrap to spring is another.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

You see no distinction between negligence and gross negligence?

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[Nullified 0]

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If he gave you a form, and it said "I agree to not hit you even if you're strung out on drugs and you attack me with intent to kill me" - would you sign it? If not, why not?

I'd take him to a psychiatrist. No, I wouldn't sign it.
And if anyone is going to quote me on anything in this post and reply, quote everything so that it's in context. I wouldn't sign it because there'd be no reason to.

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Often in life you don't get warnings about what your kids will do, about what nature will throw at you, about what chance has in store for you. Skydiving's an exception. There's a form you sign that tells you EXACTLY what can happen. You may decide that you would sue them if they hired a drunken fool as a pilot and didn't repack their reserves; there's absolutely no problem with that. The solution - don't sign the waiver. Don't wait until you're on the plane with a moldy reserve and drunk pilot to decide you don't want to take those risks.

If I believed that there was a chance of that actually being the case, I wouldn't sign the waiver. I'd never want to jump at a place like that.

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If your answer is "but I really want to jump; everyone ignores the waiver!" then realize that you are essentially lying to get what you want. You don't really agree, but your signature lets you get what you want, and you know you can legally back out of your word later.

I WOULD NOT sue if a TM brainfarts and hooks me into the ground.
I WOULD sue if a JM decided to have some fun with me by pulling my reserve handle and deploying my main, and I ended up spiraling in to the ground with a main / reserve entanglement.

Technically speaking, yes, this makes me a liar. Such an extreme situation, I feel, justifies me in breaking my word.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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You see no distinction between negligence and gross negligence?

I hate to speak for Bill, but I am pretty sure he sees the distinction between the two, that has never been the question. The question wasn't whether or not you have the legal right to sue or if you would win.

The question was, why would you give your word not to sue under any circumstance, but really mean that under certain circumstances you will sue?

I know you can, but why say that you won't if you already know that you would?

[WrongWay 0]

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... and look at how many monkeys actually said yes they would! Pathetic! If you even CONSIDER sueing, you are in the wrong sport!

Forgive my lateness to the thread.....

I TOTALLY AGREE. It's YOUR ass on the line, and YOU put it there. No one is forcing you to get on that plane, you walked on yourself, so if something goes wrong and you can't handle it, you signed the waiver and have no right to even consider a lawsuit. Shame on those who would.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[pilotdave 0]

What's your opinion on divorce and breaking wedding vows? Billvon, how about you?

Dave

[Kennedy 0]

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It's YOUR ass on the line, and YOU put it there. No one is forcing you to get on that plane, you walked on yourself, so if something goes wrong and you can't handle it, you signed the waiver and have no right to even consider a lawsuit. Shame on those who would.

Yeah, I put my ass on the line when I go skydiving, and I know I call fall by my mistake or someone else's.

But if somebody pushes me off the line/over the edge intentionally, that goes beyond what's in the waiver [rather, as aggie correctly points out, the release of liability].

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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[for all who missed it, that's sacasm]

good and reasonable point and I like it. Just the same, who takes responsibility for me skydiving?

That would be you, just it's me for me. I just don't like the idea of working with absolutes when anyone's ass is on the line. [exceptions include war, self defense, and capital trials] I simply disagree with bill that signing the waiver is giving my word not to sue. I read it as agreeing not to sue until mens rea comes into play.

ps - love the sig line.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 2,991]

>I do indeed have a problem with that attitude.

No problem at all. Don't sign the waiver if you have a problem with it.

>Anyone who would knowingly allow that situation to exist isn't worth
> keeping a promise to.

So if I give you my word, I can break it if you do something bad? Geez. I wouldn't agree to someone who had an attitude like that. When bad things happen is when people's words are most important.

>They'd be the trash of the earth and I'd be quite morally comfortable
> suing their asses off, getting them out of the business and keeping
> them out of the business for the rest of their pathetic lives.

Some "trash of the earth with pathetic lives" who had people like you decide to not keep their word -

Mick Cottle
Bill Booth
George Galloway
Melanie Conatser

[PhreeZone 20]

Don't forget to include Bill Coe and John LeBlanc to that list to since PD has been sued in the past. Ted Strong too since he had to pay thousands to get out of a lawsuit that had nothing to do with anything his company did.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,991]

>I'd take him to a psychiatrist. No, I wouldn't sign it.

OK, we're making some progress.

>If I believed that there was a chance of that actually being the case,
>I wouldn't sign the waiver. I'd never want to jump at a place like that.

So you sign it believing that the waiver is untrue?

>I WOULD sue if a JM decided to have some fun with me by pulling
> my reserve handle and deploying my main, and I ended up
> spiraling in to the ground with a main / reserve entanglement.

I have seen JM's do just that. Did they do it maliciously? No; the student was passing through 3000 feet and the reserve side fired the reserve just as the main side pulled the main. The student (fortunately) cut away when he saw the resulting mess and cleared the main. But the result was similar to what you describe, and there's no way to prove whether the JM's did it maliciously or not. (And surely if you believe there are JM's who will do that, you can believe they will lie about it.)

And thus another lawsuit is started, a lawsuit that will make another 20 laywers rich and put another DZ out of business. I suppose that's the future of the sport - the DZ with the best lawyers wins.

[billvon 2,991]

>What's your opinion on divorce and breaking wedding vows? Billvon,
>how about you?

Same issue. Keep your word, even when it results in a situation you don't like.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Same issue. Keep your word, even when it results in a situation you don't like.

"I [Mr DZ] promise to keep to the FAA rules and if I don't I will suffer the consequenses. I will keep to this promise even if I install an crappy engine with two unqualified mechanics and a load of people die because I didn't follow the FAA rules."

[WrongWay 0]

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What's your opinion on divorce and breaking wedding vows? Billvon, how about you?

Dave

What does that have to do with the waiver?

Well, since you asked, I personally don't believe in divorce. I mean, if two people aren't right for each other and it gets that bad, and they do it, thats cool with me, but if I were married, I'd stick to my vows, and never leave her side. But hey, that's just me.

I think what you're getting at in relevence to the waiver is maybe how stuff goes legally in divorce? Well, to be quite honest, I'm completely ignorant of that subject since I've never been married and my parents are still together, so whatever you say, I'm gonna have NO CLUE what you're talking about, hahahaha!!!

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[WrongWay 0]

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But if somebody pushes me off the line/over the edge intentionally, that goes beyond what's in the waiver [rather, as aggie correctly points out, the release of liability].

Whoa there's a big thick ugly line between making a mistake and doing something intentionally. If something is intentionally done that would hurt you, then hell yeah, that person should be sued, tarred, and feathered. That's just wrong, intentionally putting someone's life at risk. HOWEVER, it should be the PERSON, not the dropzone.

As for mistakes, we're all human. Neurosurgeons make the same amount of mistakes as a mechanic does. The only difference is the severity of the consequences of their mistake, the difference between a broken down car and death. It's the same way with a dropzone. We participate in a dangerous sport, and no matter how comfortable we get with the idea, we're putting our lives at risk every time we leave that door, and certain things must be taken with a grain of salt and a high level of respect from both sides, even beyond those six pages that we initial and never read.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[kallend 2,026]

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>What's your opinion on divorce and breaking wedding vows? Billvon,
>how about you?

Same issue. Keep your word, even when it results in a situation you don't like.

You and I clearly have a different opinion of what our "word" is.

When I sign a LEGAL DOCUMENT I believe it means what the law says it means, no more, and no less. A waiver is presented to me as a legal document. Most of them even state quite plainly on them that they are legal documents. That's fine with me.

Once the DZ decides to go the route of a legal contract, that contract then is subject to the laws of the local jurisdiction.

If that legal document removes my rights, that's fine with me.

If it appears to remove my rights but actually doesn't because the law won't allow it to, then that is a problem for the attorney who drew it up in the first place.

I don't have any problem signing the waiver. My signature on that contract means that I accept whatever the law says I accept when I sign it.

There's a very good reason that most places won't allow you to waive your rights with respect to gross and criminal negligence. It is good public policy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,991]

>When I sign a LEGAL DOCUMENT I believe it means what the law
>says it means, no more, and no less.

OK. An example:

I go to sell you a rig. It's a Talon with a Stiletto 120, PD126, and a Cypres. It's in decent shape but I'm desperate to get rid of it; I offer you the complete system for $1500. You write me a check and put "complete talon system" in the comment field.

I cash the check and give you the container minus the AAD and canopies. When you object I say "the only document you have is that cancelled check, and it says 'complete talon system.' The industry-accepted definition of the talon is a complete harness-container system including deployment bag and risers, which I have included. You have no legal standing to demand anything else."

Am I legally within my rights? Yes.

Is what I did right? Did I keep my word to you? Does that matter?

I have no doubt that you could get a lawyer to get you out of most things you sign; that's the way our legal system works. If you sign a contract that says you won't sue, and you will sue under certain conditions, you're lying. I don't care how good your lawyer is.

[Nullified 0]

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>If I believed that there was a chance of that actually being the case,
>I wouldn't sign the waiver. I'd never want to jump at a place like that.

So you sign it believing that the waiver is untrue?

Untrue and invalid are two different things.
The waiver certainly is correct in presenting to me the very real fact that absolutely anything can happen, that nothing is impossible. That doesn't necessarily mean that the waiver is representative of the spirit of the DZ regarding the value that they place on human life. If I had any reason to believe that a DZ truly had such little regard for human life that they would intentionally and knowingly allow and foster a disaster waiting to happen, I would never jump there.
Even though it's in the waiver, I sign it under the reasonable assumption that the DZO isn't going to be behind the hangar with the pilot, smoking crack before load 1 goes up, that they do have our safety in mind and are making at least some effort to not create an unreasonable level of extra danger.
I know why they're worded that way, to cover their asses as completely as possible. In this day, yes, there are people who will sue even when things are their own fault. I'm not, NOR will I sue in the event of an accident at the DZ.

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>I WOULD sue if a JM decided to have some fun with me by pulling
> my reserve handle and deploying my main, and I ended up
> spiraling in to the ground with a main / reserve entanglement.

I have seen JM's do just that. Did they do it maliciously? No; the student was passing through 3000 feet and the reserve side fired the reserve just as the main side pulled the main. The student (fortunately) cut away when he saw the resulting mess and cleared the main. But the result was similar to what you describe, and there's no way to prove whether the JM's did it maliciously or not. (And surely if you believe there are JM's who will do that, you can believe they will lie about it.)

Bill, that's a 180* different situation that I described. I would NEVER sue a JM if he or she inadvertantly hurt me while trying to save my life. Completely different scenario.
Assuming that the JM fessed up and said, "Yeah, at 8 grand I decided to have some fun with student Mike. I figured he'd have time to clear the mess, but I guess it was unrecoverable afterall. Sure was cool to see, though", and then the crackhead DZO chimed in with, "Yeah, we do that to students sometimes, this is the first time it went bad, though", you'd still take issue with me initiating a lawsuit?

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And thus another lawsuit is started, a lawsuit that will make another 20 laywers rich and put another DZ out of business. I suppose that's the future of the sport - the DZ with the best lawyers wins.

You know, you're painting me as a petty litigious person by making a comment like that.
I'm talking about extreme cases. Cases in which the DZ(O) should be put and kept out of business. Would you want this hypothetical DZ operating?

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.