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QuoteThey say... well, ok, but you know, I'll let you use it as long as you promise not to blame me if you get hurt.... because you know that thing called "human error" well, all my employees are human, and they're not perfect and ...
And well duh, the moment I'm gonna sue someone for not being perfect will be the moment I declare to the world "I AM PERFECT"
Again, this is a statement that does NOT accurately represent the issue that we're discussing. Human error and accidents are not the issue. The issue is gross and criminal negligence. Enormous difference. Please realize this.
Stay safe,
Mike
If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.
billvon 3,067
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>You know, you're painting me as a petty litigious person by making
> a comment like that.
Well, just more litigious than me.
>I'm talking about extreme cases.
EVERYONE thinks their case is an extreme case. Kat Folger really thought that Mick didn't care if skydivers died, and putting him out of business permanently would save the lives of skydivers everywhere. The guy who sued Precision out of existence (which is the likely result of the decision) really thought that they made deadly products that killed people. Students who are injured are often convinced that shutting down this dangerous DZ where people can be injured or killed is a public service. What's more extreme negligence than neglect that injures or kills someone?
Why are they wrong, if you use the same logic yourself?
> Cases in which the DZ(O) should
> be put and kept out of business. Would you want this hypothetical
> DZ operating?
Some more examples -
A DZ where a jumper goes up to the pilot to complain that one of the JM's smells like beer, and the pilot shows her _his_ beer.
A DZ where a DZO did not install seat belts because it was cheaper not to, and a lot of people died in an accident.
A DZ where a DZO saved money by putting only an FXC on the main parachute and no AAD at all on the reserve.
A DZ where the student rig reserve containers are held together with duct tape.
An airplane that ran on 95 octane auto gas but had never had the official STC done to allow it to run on auto gas.
A big way where the organizers sit around and drink beer and then go up and make a jump.
A 'club' on the DZ where you could go for drugs and alcohol between jumps.
Do you want those hypothetical DZ's shut down? Cause they're not hypothetical, and you have probably jumped at at least two of the DZ's listed above. Would we be better off if all those DZ's were shut down?
Stuff like that happens at DZ's. That's why there's all that scary language in the waiver. It IS representative of the spirit at some DZ's, which is why it's in there. As I've said a dozen times now, the time to decide that you're OK with someone drinking beer and then flying you is BEFORE you sign the waiver, not when you're sitting on the plane with a drunk pilot.
This is not a safe sport. Many people in it do not have safety as their #1 priority. They can be careless and negligent. That's why you have to agree to all that stuff, cause it happens.
> a comment like that.
Well, just more litigious than me.
>I'm talking about extreme cases.
EVERYONE thinks their case is an extreme case. Kat Folger really thought that Mick didn't care if skydivers died, and putting him out of business permanently would save the lives of skydivers everywhere. The guy who sued Precision out of existence (which is the likely result of the decision) really thought that they made deadly products that killed people. Students who are injured are often convinced that shutting down this dangerous DZ where people can be injured or killed is a public service. What's more extreme negligence than neglect that injures or kills someone?
Why are they wrong, if you use the same logic yourself?
> Cases in which the DZ(O) should
> be put and kept out of business. Would you want this hypothetical
> DZ operating?
Some more examples -
A DZ where a jumper goes up to the pilot to complain that one of the JM's smells like beer, and the pilot shows her _his_ beer.
A DZ where a DZO did not install seat belts because it was cheaper not to, and a lot of people died in an accident.
A DZ where a DZO saved money by putting only an FXC on the main parachute and no AAD at all on the reserve.
A DZ where the student rig reserve containers are held together with duct tape.
An airplane that ran on 95 octane auto gas but had never had the official STC done to allow it to run on auto gas.
A big way where the organizers sit around and drink beer and then go up and make a jump.
A 'club' on the DZ where you could go for drugs and alcohol between jumps.
Do you want those hypothetical DZ's shut down? Cause they're not hypothetical, and you have probably jumped at at least two of the DZ's listed above. Would we be better off if all those DZ's were shut down?
Stuff like that happens at DZ's. That's why there's all that scary language in the waiver. It IS representative of the spirit at some DZ's, which is why it's in there. As I've said a dozen times now, the time to decide that you're OK with someone drinking beer and then flying you is BEFORE you sign the waiver, not when you're sitting on the plane with a drunk pilot.
This is not a safe sport. Many people in it do not have safety as their #1 priority. They can be careless and negligent. That's why you have to agree to all that stuff, cause it happens.
I like your nice simple view of it, and I agree if it were worded in the manner you imply (simply agree not to sue for common human errors) then Yea but the wording of the waiver (in an attempt to keep clever legal scum from turning a simple mistake into wanton negligence) is so extreme as to be the equivalent of "ok shucks you want to ride in my plane ok, but if anything happens including my slashing your parachute with a chainsaw flying you intentionally up to 25000 feet without oxygen and then banking the plane so you fall out unconscious you promise not to sue" the situation is so insane you assume he's joking and go for the ride, and unless were in bizaro world, there will be no insane clown on the plane with a chainsaw waiting for you. when I sign a waiver I read every thing, understand that the spirit of the contract is just as you propose to keep the innate risks of the sport, and human error from ruining the life of the DZO and closing the DZ. And when I read the "we can do whatever we want no matter how crazy / evil / stupid and you cant touch us", I understand that that can't stand up in court that its just there to keep people who might sue for stupid stuff in line and have no problem signing something saying I won't sue I DON'T CARE if the DZO thinks I've given my word that he can do crazy evil stupid stuff intentionally and be judgment proof, in my mind and on my honor I've signed a stupidly worded document knowing what I am swearing to (not to sue for stupid shit) and knowing that the insane wording is worthless has no ability to bind me, and in the kind of insane world where a DZO would try to kill me by cutting corners or worse not only will he have the law (which his waiver/contract will be voided by) but if I live he'll probably receive from me a violation of law that if caught will land me in jail.
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.
I agree
I'm sorry if I wasn't exactly on the point in previous posts, but in the issue of gross negligence, I'm trying to look beyond society and law. I think it's called survival of the fittest or something.
Everything contrbutes to this way of life and if we continue to go around blaming everything we can for everything we can, we are going to end up with a pretty shitty world where skydiving won't exist because in the end, no one is going to be left who will take the chance to open a Drop zone or own an airplane.
I'm sorry if I wasn't exactly on the point in previous posts, but in the issue of gross negligence, I'm trying to look beyond society and law. I think it's called survival of the fittest or something.
Everything contrbutes to this way of life and if we continue to go around blaming everything we can for everything we can, we are going to end up with a pretty shitty world where skydiving won't exist because in the end, no one is going to be left who will take the chance to open a Drop zone or own an airplane.
Harksaw 0
Quote
A DZ where a jumper goes up to the pilot to complain that one of the JM's smells like beer, and the pilot shows her _his_ beer.
A DZ where a DZO did not install seat belts because it was cheaper not to, and a lot of people died in an accident.
A DZ where a DZO saved money by putting only an FXC on the main parachute and no AAD at all on the reserve.
A DZ where the student rig reserve containers are held together with duct tape.
An airplane that ran on 95 octane auto gas but had never had the official STC done to allow it to run on auto gas.
A big way where the organizers sit around and drink beer and then go up and make a jump.
A 'club' on the DZ where you could go for drugs and alcohol between jumps.
Do you want those hypothetical DZ's shut down? Cause they're not hypothetical, and you have probably jumped at at least two of the DZ's listed above. Would we be better off if all those DZ's were shut down?
Several of the points you mentioned involve blatant breaking of the law. If someone sued if these illegal activities caused a death, I would not shed one tear toward a dropzone that was forced to shut down due to these illegal activities. I would prefer they stop on their own, hopefully before an incident occured, but if this is the only way to make them stop, then so be it.
I don't want illegally behaving skydive dropzones affecting legal ones, giving skydiving everywhere a bad name.
__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
billvon 3,067
>I disagree that knowingly improperly maintaining an aircraft, to a
> dangerous degree, or lying about abilities, or packing a reserve
> while high on crack, or getting stabbed by a DZO with a knife, while
> skydiving, is human error.
Replace "crack" with "pot" and take out the stabbing and what you described has happened at several DZ's I've been at. Again, read the waiver. They're not kidding.
(And the stabbing? Never fear; the DA will come after him for assault, and he will end up in jail. Problem solved.)
> dangerous degree, or lying about abilities, or packing a reserve
> while high on crack, or getting stabbed by a DZO with a knife, while
> skydiving, is human error.
Replace "crack" with "pot" and take out the stabbing and what you described has happened at several DZ's I've been at. Again, read the waiver. They're not kidding.
(And the stabbing? Never fear; the DA will come after him for assault, and he will end up in jail. Problem solved.)
billvon 3,067
>Several of the points you mentioned involve blatant breaking of the
> law. If someone sued if these illegal activities caused a death, I
> would not shed one tear toward a dropzone that was forced to shut
> down due to these illegal activities. I would prefer they stop on their
> own, hopefully before an incident occured, but if this is the only way
> to make them stop, then so be it.
Suffice to say I am glad that most people are not like you; I would not want to see some of the best DZ's (also some of the largest) in the country shut down to protect the illusion that skydiving is safe, and
that all DZO employees have nothing but your personal safety in mind.
> law. If someone sued if these illegal activities caused a death, I
> would not shed one tear toward a dropzone that was forced to shut
> down due to these illegal activities. I would prefer they stop on their
> own, hopefully before an incident occured, but if this is the only way
> to make them stop, then so be it.
Suffice to say I am glad that most people are not like you; I would not want to see some of the best DZ's (also some of the largest) in the country shut down to protect the illusion that skydiving is safe, and
that all DZO employees have nothing but your personal safety in mind.
Harksaw 0
I am glad most DZs (that I've been to, anyway) are not like you, and actually do care about obeying the law.
Its not to protect the illusion that skydiving is safe. Skydiving is plenty dangerous without breaking the law as you have listed above. I can't see how you are defending illegal activity as an inherent part of skydiving.
Laws are there for a reason. There is no reason to make skydiving more dangerous than it already is by breaking the law.
I know you are a resonable person, and therefore I can't believe you are defending the illegal activity that you seem to be. Am I missing some of your point?
Its not to protect the illusion that skydiving is safe. Skydiving is plenty dangerous without breaking the law as you have listed above. I can't see how you are defending illegal activity as an inherent part of skydiving.
Laws are there for a reason. There is no reason to make skydiving more dangerous than it already is by breaking the law.
I know you are a resonable person, and therefore I can't believe you are defending the illegal activity that you seem to be. Am I missing some of your point?
__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
ON the philosophical note "survival of the fittest" is a state of nature that has no real application to the human race now. Our society functions on trust, you trust the other drivers on the road to have some control (you can claim you don't trust them and to some extent I don't either but if you like me don't pull over and stop every time you see another car anywhere near you then you do trust others) We depend on the word of our rigger, the skill inteligence and good behavior of our pilots, students trust their instructors. Any intentional wanton violation of this trust is so wrong it superseeds any contract (which is why the courts void waivers in these cases) A previous post talked about "manning up" and in my reply I said simply Manning up is for everyone, pilot, rigger, JM, Student and most importantly ME, but when I make the decision to jump I know the risks, I weigh them and make my call. If I have been given intentionally false information from people I trust (rigger pilot DZO) then I havn't been given a fair shot at deciding what risk I'm actually running. Again, to everyone who says its my call and my fault.. your full of it no one, not one of us actually checks EVERYTHING some where in there you are trusting at least one (more likely MANY) people to be doing their best, not intentionally trying to screw you, not cutting corners and lieing, or your running on the assumption that anything you dont check IS being Intentionally negelcted/screwed with and you make you measure of risk based on that ..(which if it were true gives you about a 1:10000 chance of living) if thats the case you nuts but I bet you get a bigger rush from the sport then I do, and I hope your wrong on your assumptions.
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.
billvon 3,067
>I am glad most DZs (that I've been to, anyway) are not like you,
>and actually do care about obeying the law.
I think you'd be suprised at what goes on at your law-abiding DZ's.
>I know you are a resonable person, and therefore I can't believe you
> are defending the illegal activity that you seem to be. Am I missing
> some of your point?
People shouldn't break the law, or even the BSR's. It does happen. Even if they don't break the law you can be killed by someone else's negligence. The waiver spells this out in excruciating detail. My point is that it CAN happen to you, and you should decide that you will or will not sue before you sign the waiver. And then you should live with your decision one way or the other.
It's your word I'm talking about. People who break the law? Send the DA after them. And keep your word.
>and actually do care about obeying the law.
I think you'd be suprised at what goes on at your law-abiding DZ's.
>I know you are a resonable person, and therefore I can't believe you
> are defending the illegal activity that you seem to be. Am I missing
> some of your point?
People shouldn't break the law, or even the BSR's. It does happen. Even if they don't break the law you can be killed by someone else's negligence. The waiver spells this out in excruciating detail. My point is that it CAN happen to you, and you should decide that you will or will not sue before you sign the waiver. And then you should live with your decision one way or the other.
It's your word I'm talking about. People who break the law? Send the DA after them. And keep your word.
falxori 0
QuoteI would not want to see some of the best DZ's (also some of the largest) in the country shut down to protect the illusion that skydiving is safe, and
that all DZO employees have nothing but your personal safety in mind.
with all due respect, a pilot drinking between loads is a very good reason to close the DZ.
moreover if the DZO knows about it.
if you refer to the waiver as a legal document, it will not hold in such cases (which are also criminal)
if you talk about "giving your word" then all i can say is that when i sign up and pay for a jump i'm also "taking their word" that they're doing evryything (that is up to them) to keep me safe.
i dont know what's the legal term, but when you're paying for a service (and jumping at a DZ is a service) it is implied that you'll get what you paid for.
and i expect to get well maintained equipment and a DZO that knows what the staff is doing.
O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
Glad to hear you're perfectly ok with those types of things happening where you jump. Hope you never plan to be an S&TA.
And you keep mentioning that a DA will solve my problems if someone commits a crime against me. How does someone going to jail solve my problem? It's justice I guess. But that's about it.
Anyway, I respect your decision not to ever sue anyone remotely related to skydiving for any reason. But damn, a lot of what you said scares the crap out of me (about you, not about skydiving). You seem to simply accept unreasonable (ie crazy) risks, just because they've happened before.
I for one don't accept that a student rig could be held together with duct tape. I believe you that it's happened. And if a student was killed because that duct tape gave way, thats gross negligence and I hope someone sued, or at the very least the DZ learned their lesson and took better care of their rigs. Lesson learned. Are you suggesting that the skydiving community is incapable of learning from past mistakes? Or are you suggesting, as you seem to be, that all those horrible things you listed aren't mistakes, but rather just parts of the sport?
edit: Bill, you've been around a lot longer than I have. I hope when I have as many jumps as you I'll be going around demanding better safety, not less blame for the poor safety.
Dave
And you keep mentioning that a DA will solve my problems if someone commits a crime against me. How does someone going to jail solve my problem? It's justice I guess. But that's about it.
Anyway, I respect your decision not to ever sue anyone remotely related to skydiving for any reason. But damn, a lot of what you said scares the crap out of me (about you, not about skydiving). You seem to simply accept unreasonable (ie crazy) risks, just because they've happened before.
I for one don't accept that a student rig could be held together with duct tape. I believe you that it's happened. And if a student was killed because that duct tape gave way, thats gross negligence and I hope someone sued, or at the very least the DZ learned their lesson and took better care of their rigs. Lesson learned. Are you suggesting that the skydiving community is incapable of learning from past mistakes? Or are you suggesting, as you seem to be, that all those horrible things you listed aren't mistakes, but rather just parts of the sport?
edit: Bill, you've been around a lot longer than I have. I hope when I have as many jumps as you I'll be going around demanding better safety, not less blame for the poor safety.
Dave
PhreeZone 20
>Hope you never plan to be an S&TA.
Bill can correct me if I'm wrong but he used to be an S&TA and resigned since people quit listening to him.
>killed because that duct tape gave way, thats gross negligence
Why? If a master rigger deems it as an airworthy substitude for material then its all following the FAR's.
I've been to enough DZ's to know that there is'nt a single one out there that is following every restriction, every maintence plan, every BSR and every FAR. The USPA offers a safety inspection program. Only one DZ took them up on the free offer and failed. Thats not saying much for DZ's across the country. Knowing this does'nt stop me from jumping, it just means I look out for myself more. I look at the fueling procedures to make sure the tanks or barrels can't catch water, I look to make sure there are no open containers while jump operations are in progress. I make sure that the DZ ties the planes down once a beer front moves in for the afternoon...
Bill can correct me if I'm wrong but he used to be an S&TA and resigned since people quit listening to him.
>killed because that duct tape gave way, thats gross negligence
Why? If a master rigger deems it as an airworthy substitude for material then its all following the FAR's.
I've been to enough DZ's to know that there is'nt a single one out there that is following every restriction, every maintence plan, every BSR and every FAR. The USPA offers a safety inspection program. Only one DZ took them up on the free offer and failed. Thats not saying much for DZ's across the country. Knowing this does'nt stop me from jumping, it just means I look out for myself more. I look at the fueling procedures to make sure the tanks or barrels can't catch water, I look to make sure there are no open containers while jump operations are in progress. I make sure that the DZ ties the planes down once a beer front moves in for the afternoon...
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Minor violations here and there aren't gross negligence and not what I'm talking about. We've all flown through and jumped through clouds. That violates FARs and BSRs. But who really cares? Not the stuff I'm talking about.
And I see why people wouldn't wanna listen to Bill. (Just kidding!
Dave
And I see why people wouldn't wanna listen to Bill. (Just kidding!
Dave
Skydiving has moved on a lot in recent years and with the massive rise in advertising in all its forms you attract a different clientele than you did a few years ago. Unfortunately, you attract people who aren't thinking about consequences before they jump. So what about the following:
If you can't accept that the person skydiving with you may just be a normal person who can't keep their word and may sue even though they signed a contract saying they wouldn't sue then you have no place in modern skydiving.
Just playing devil's advocate here as there are good arguments on both side of the fence. I like to think I wouldn't sue, but then again I don't have to sign a waiver in the UK...
If you can't accept that the person skydiving with you may just be a normal person who can't keep their word and may sue even though they signed a contract saying they wouldn't sue then you have no place in modern skydiving.
Just playing devil's advocate here as there are good arguments on both side of the fence. I like to think I wouldn't sue, but then again I don't have to sign a waiver in the UK...
PhreeZone 20
I'm not talking minor violations. I'm talking major stuff like drinking/drugs and jumping, <8 hours bottle to throttle, pilots that have flown for 14 hours straight, fuel being stored in unsafe containers... things like that.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Jimbo 0
QuoteI look to make sure there are no open containers while jump operations are in progress. I
What do you do at Zhills? IIRC, the bar is open all day long. How about WFFC?
-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
PhreeZone 20
I jump anyways but choose who I jump with more carefully. Deland serves beer all day to as does almost every DZ with a full service bar on it.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Harksaw 0
Quote
QuoteI look to make sure there are no open containers while jump operations are in progress. I
What do you do at Zhills? IIRC, the bar is open all day long. How about WFFC?
-
Jim
The bar wasn't open all day when I was there last. Course, that was nearly a year ago.
__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.
Dave
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