airtwardo 7 #101 September 10, 2003 Quote Maybe the USPA should ditch the museum that no one seems to want and work on getting insurance? Why have a museum for the USPA when the USPA will disapear if the insurance is no longer offered? *** Ron- Hey, these are genuine concerns! Make you voice be heard, address questions and opinions like that both to your Regional Director, and The Board of Directors At The USPA. It's YOUR organization! Let them know what you think, ask questions. Get involved! This is an issue that could conceivably affect the way the whole industry does business. The organization management should be made well aware exactly what out concerns and priorities are... It might be interesting to review a spreadsheet of the general accounting and expenditures... Possibly there are some areas (such as you mentioned) that aren't as high on the list of the general members priorities, as those making the spending decisions believe them to be. Don't criticize them, they're doing what they think best for the organization... ...and they for the most part, get very limited input from 'us in the field' Heck... they couldn't even get people to respond to the proxy issue... There are a whole lot of smart, talented people out here... If you have questions...ask them! If you are not happy with the way things are being done, work to change them! Write...Call...VOTE! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #102 September 10, 2003 I have given up on the USPA. They ignore issues all to often. And ignore input from people and do what they want. No one wanted the museum. Only the board did. They are lazy, and I am looking forward to the day I don't have to be a member to jump at some of my favorite DZ's. I will send my money to the AOPA to have a lobist in DC, and I'll but Skydiving to get real news, not politicly correct agenda spurting crap."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #103 September 12, 2003 QuoteI have given up on the USPA. They ignore issues all to often. And ignore input from people and do what they want. No one wanted the museum. Only the board did. They are lazy, and I am looking forward to the day I don't have to be a member to jump at some of my favorite DZ's. I will send my money to the AOPA to have a lobist in DC, and I'll but Skydiving to get real news, not politicly correct agenda spurting crap. *** Don't sugar coat it Ron! How do you REALLY feel!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spectreflyer 0 #104 September 28, 2003 Fellow jumpers, For those who follow demo post like I do, this is not just about dues and raising the bar for the PRO rating. If something doesn't happen soon, skydiving in general as we know it will forever be changed. I fully believe we are facing a major crisis! Just take a look at the events of 9/11. Boeing and the owners of the World Trade Centers are now being sued for causing 9/11. Does that make any sense? If USPA doesn't realize soon what they are facing, they will wake-up one day and say, what the heck happened! Where did all of our members go? No insurance, no members! That's how most jumpers feel. If there is no insurance, why pay the dues. If DZ's no longer can afford the insurance, it want stop me from jumping. I have a place to jump besides the DZ, but most people don't have that luxury. Without DZ's, the gear manufacturers will go away, etc., etc., etc. Guys, this is serious business! If we start now, we may be able to save our sport. Some will think I am crying wolf and over reacting. Some have already, like myself, seen the light, no light in this case, at the end of the tunnel! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #105 September 28, 2003 QuoteIf something doesn't happen soon, skydiving in general as we know it will forever be changed. If the USPA membership demonstrates the ability to pay ever increasing insurance premiums there will be no problem. However, we live in a world of limits, and the tort system has been pushing each and every industry toward their limits. At some point the USPA membership will have to say enough is enough. Today, the Trial Lawyers Association are one of the largest contributers to the Democratic party, and their position is to keep our evil corporations (your 401k plan) "in-check" through large punitive and suffering awards. The insurance industry is simply responding to the courts. And I wouldn't count on anything from the courts since these are the same folks who will quietly give the nod for a single mother of three kids to forfeit her home because the teenage son had a couple of pot plants in his bedroom closet. The current USPA dues are roughly the same price as a "pay-per-view" boxing match. Personally, I would expect annual dues climb to at least several hundred dollars if they are to continue their third party insurance program. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #106 September 28, 2003 What exactly is a "Demo jumper"? I am a young guy, don't know much about insurance policies, I don't know much about law. What I do know is I love skydiving, I am completely addicted and don't know what I would do without it. What does all this mean to a person like me? More money to be able to jump paid to USPA? No more jumping? I do understand some of whats being said but whats it all boiling down to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #107 September 28, 2003 Quote What exactly is a "Demo jumper"? *** Kind of like a 'Biker' but with teeth! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #108 September 29, 2003 Re-reading the essay by Glenn Bangs in the Sept. Parchutist, one thing that is key in it is that the Board asking for input from the membership for solutions. They've stated the circumstances and possible consequences. I don't know much about selling insurance, but one thing sticks out like a sore thumb: QuoteUnfortunately, whenever a claim is submitted to USPAs provider under the demo insurance program, USPA loses all control over that claim. Regardless of circumstances, the insurance company often pays the claim, rather than refuting it in court, preferring to cut its losses and pass the costs back to its customer (USPA) in the form of higher premiums. This sounds a lot like what is going on with California's workman's comp problem. The system is designed to just payout to the claimant, versus impose limits and checkpoints against fraud and abuse. Certainly that are other companies which provide this type of coverage, but with greater cost controls, which assure coverage, but ensure there is less waste, or extraneous payouts? As for me, I'm still wondering how a lack of coverage would affect me. I've made sure that my health coverage and life policies are up to the task, but I don't have my own liability to cover third-party damages if I were to find myself needing it. So, let's say winds screw with me, and I end up damaging someone's private property, technically, I don't think the DZ could be held in any liability, but I could, for certain. Based on 150 jumps per year, and year round jumping, this sport costs me (this is off the cuff): $49.00 USPA $3000.00 Jumps $180.00 Reserve I/R $30.00 Misc (rubber bands, etc.) $500.00 Other fees (competitions, slot fills) $3759.00 Total/Year Buying any kind of personal liability is going to add a significant percentage to the bottom line? What might it cost...$250/year? So, $4000+ per year and up as inflation continues and costs for the DZ rise. Add 4% per year...$4160, $4326, $4499... and that's being kind. Depending on how this shakes out, I'm young enough in the sport that it may nudge me out of it. I don't have a PRO Rating so I can't even imagine everything you guys go through sometimes. I'm not good enough at math to figure out a solution to USPAs problem here, but it has to be mathmatically possible, and thus economically possible. Risk managers...step up!! I remember Needles' article last year about this, I just didn't recall that Demo was a rider on the general policy. Now the impact will kill both. Perhaps USPA can get the general coverage as a rider on something with AOPA?So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #109 September 29, 2003 QuoteKind of like a 'Biker' but with teeth! Still kind of in the dark as to what a demo jumper is. After I find out I am sure that line will be clear to me QuoteDepending on how this shakes out, I'm young enough in the sport that it may nudge me out of it. I to am young in the sport but I CANT be nudged out. I must continue this and will no matter what find a way. I hope they figure something out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #110 September 29, 2003 QuoteStill kind of in the dark as to what a demo jumper is. After I find out I am sure that line will be clear to me I didn't get the joke behind the line either, but one area for demo jumpers are skydivers flying in to sporting events and public venues.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #111 September 29, 2003 So a demo jumper is someone who comes to jump at sporting events and other DZ's? I am really a confused wetard now... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #112 September 29, 2003 demo is short for Demonstration. So when someone does any sort of Demonstration for a crowd, it's basically a demo jump. More specifically it would be when someone jumps into a sportsgame or an airshow or something of that nature Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifics 0 #113 September 29, 2003 OHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, everyone with me now, 1-2-3 DOH!!!! Makes sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #114 September 29, 2003 I'm a demo jumper... Check our website; www.libertyteam.com ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #115 September 29, 2003 Quote As for me, I'm still wondering how a lack of coverage would affect me. I've made sure that my health coverage and life policies are up to the task, but I don't have my own liability to cover third-party damages if I were to find myself needing it. So, let's say winds screw with me, and I end up damaging someone's private property, technically, I don't think the DZ could be held in any liability, but I could, for certain. Quote That's why we should 'first kill all the lawyers' If you caused the damage...but didn't have any coverage or assets to correct your injured parties loss, that party would understandably go after anyone and everyone that he might recover payment from. And the most obvious party would be the dropzone, which means that their cost for liability coverage would skyrocket as would jump tickets...(as an example) Now there was a recent claim from a 'novice' jumper that landed out... canopy went over some power lines and shut of an area of town, including the air-conditioning at a 'chicken farm' causing 35,000 dollars plus in dead fowl. The general membership insurance covered the loss without question... Without that coverage in place who would cover it? Buying any kind of personal liability is going to add a significant percentage to the bottom line? What might it cost...$250/year Well... you may want to check with your insurance broker, I've been doing a little research on this and the personal liability policy programs I've been able to check out are worded as such that I don't believe that 'chicken farm' losses would be covered. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #116 October 2, 2003 Quote Buying any kind of personal liability is going to add a significant percentage to the bottom line? What might it cost...$250/year Well... you may want to check with your insurance broker, I've been doing a little research on this and the personal liability policy programs I've been able to check out are worded as such that I don't believe that 'chicken farm' losses would be covered. This could be the next insurance segment...we have life insurance, auto insurance, now...personal liability insurance, use it the same way that people use auto insurance, sans the "health" insurance factor. How does FAI or CSPA handle this?So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #117 December 30, 2003 Bumped to renew discussion ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #118 December 30, 2003 QuoteQuote What exactly is a "Demo jumper"? *** Kind of like a 'Biker' but with teeth! We don't all have teeth. Some of us played hockey...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #119 December 30, 2003 Sorry... I stand corrected! (again) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bsoder 0 #120 December 30, 2003 I called my homeowner's insurance and told them I was having a discussion with some friends about personal liability and our sue-happy society. He laughed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #121 December 30, 2003 Yeah, I had a similar discussion some time back... Ask him another hypothetical concerning parachute activities and demonstration jumping... It's whole different can 'o worms... If said thrown football were tossed by someone being paid to do so...a performance so to speak. The insurer may have a slightly different opinion on whether they would pay. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bsoder 0 #122 December 31, 2003 Yeah, I already had that discussion. If it's done for fun, it's covered. Competition isn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #123 December 31, 2003 QuoteYeah, I already had that discussion. If it's done for fun, it's covered. Competition isn't. *** But how about if it's done for money? If you are being paid as a 'professional performer' and someone should be inadvertently injured as a result of your performance.... I'm doubtful homeowners / renters liability would cover you. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bsoder 0 #124 December 31, 2003 Right, it won't. Paid = same as competition = not "just for fun." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #125 December 31, 2003 QuoteRight, it won't. Paid = same as competition = not "just for fun." *** I do see your point! And it does raise an interesting question... I wonder if and for how much a person might actually be covered in a real world situation, by such a 'personal policy' if he were jumping demos for charity events and such...? I'll ask the lawyer on our team for an opinion... Creative thought process there! Keep those ideas coming!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 5 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
airtwardo 7 #121 December 30, 2003 Yeah, I had a similar discussion some time back... Ask him another hypothetical concerning parachute activities and demonstration jumping... It's whole different can 'o worms... If said thrown football were tossed by someone being paid to do so...a performance so to speak. The insurer may have a slightly different opinion on whether they would pay. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bsoder 0 #122 December 31, 2003 Yeah, I already had that discussion. If it's done for fun, it's covered. Competition isn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #123 December 31, 2003 QuoteYeah, I already had that discussion. If it's done for fun, it's covered. Competition isn't. *** But how about if it's done for money? If you are being paid as a 'professional performer' and someone should be inadvertently injured as a result of your performance.... I'm doubtful homeowners / renters liability would cover you. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bsoder 0 #124 December 31, 2003 Right, it won't. Paid = same as competition = not "just for fun." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #125 December 31, 2003 QuoteRight, it won't. Paid = same as competition = not "just for fun." *** I do see your point! And it does raise an interesting question... I wonder if and for how much a person might actually be covered in a real world situation, by such a 'personal policy' if he were jumping demos for charity events and such...? I'll ask the lawyer on our team for an opinion... Creative thought process there! Keep those ideas coming!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 5 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
bsoder 0 #124 December 31, 2003 Right, it won't. Paid = same as competition = not "just for fun." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #125 December 31, 2003 QuoteRight, it won't. Paid = same as competition = not "just for fun." *** I do see your point! And it does raise an interesting question... I wonder if and for how much a person might actually be covered in a real world situation, by such a 'personal policy' if he were jumping demos for charity events and such...? I'll ask the lawyer on our team for an opinion... Creative thought process there! Keep those ideas coming!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
