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two choices:
1) Ride the plane down.
2) Throw your canopy a little higher and fly it back.
3) Spot a nice place to land from your spot.
There's no excuse for making an unsafe jump so you don't have to ride the plane down.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
1) Ride the plane down.
2) Throw your canopy a little higher and fly it back.
3) Spot a nice place to land from your spot.
There's no excuse for making an unsafe jump so you don't have to ride the plane down.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
tombuch 0
Quote
NO landing injury was EVER caused by a bad spot. A landing injury happens when jumpers fail to utilize all the area around them for landing. It really grates my goat whenever I see someone post landing injuries were the result of a bad spot. BS.
I disagree with your goat. I think we both understand that it's often tough to pin a fatality on one single thing. Generally, there is a chain of events that creates the fatality.
In the case of a bad spot, the spot is may be first link in that chain. The failure of the jumper to recognize the poor spot is the second link. The failure of the jumper to land in an open area can be the third link (but sometimes even that's the fourth or fifth link), the failure to land correctly in the selected area is another link, and sometimes that's followed by a failure of others to locate or assist the jumper. The whole thing may actually start with the jumper deciding to make a skydive under adverse weather conditions, or in an area with no outs. Whatever.
The key here is that the spot was the first element of that chain. The poor spot might not have been a big deal for a more experienced or attentive jumper, but in the case of a fatality it shouldn't be discounted as the first link. With a better spot the other links might never have materialzed, and the jumper might be alive.
When we discuss fatalities we need to look for every link and understand how important each is.
Your goat is correct that a bad spot doesn't cause fatalities, but it is an important part of some fatal accisents. Those of us who spot for others, or take the spots offered by others, should understand how important the spot is for creating safe landing options.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Safety and Training Advisor
Commercial Pilot (IAMSEL,G)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy
pds 0
QuoteQuotehaha. what other answer to expect from a jumpship pilot. lol.
Or a jumpship pilot who has enough jumps and time in the sport to know that it is a cop out to blame the spot for the incident. Personal responsibility for your own skydive remember? See above for the other reasons why this is a cop out.
chris, sorry i didn't put a few wink wink nudgenudge's on there and then backed you up. thought it wuz implied.
namaste, motherfucker.
pds 0
QuoteWhat the hell is this "official report" everyone yammers about? Who issues "official reports"? What makes it authoritative? Has anyone ever seen such a thing?
sure.
fatalities are investigated. begins with the police. a case is opened and report initiated. equipment is sent to the uspa designated rigger for examination along with other evidence such as video and witness statements and a uspa sanctioned fatality report is generated and returned to police to facilitate disposition of the case.
the availability of these reports in some cases is a question mark. it took me 3 months to get copies of all the reports.
so, there are official reports but IMO they do not supplant qualified witness statements in regards to the scope of the incident's forum.
namaste, motherfucker.
Quote
NO landing injury was EVER caused by a bad spot. A landing injury happens when jumpers fail to utilize all the area around them for landing. It really grates my goat whenever I see someone post landing injuries were the result of a bad spot. BS.
Aha!
This is exactly the kind of discussion that can be usefull, regardless of whether or not it turns out to have been a factor in a given incident.
It readily admit that it would be extremely unlikely for a bad spot to be more than one link in the chain of events resulting in an incident.
Spotting wasn't the subject of my post, so I didn't elaborate, but when I refer to a bad spot being a cause of an accident, I mean it only in so far as a jumper found themselves landing in unfamiliar terrain.
How they ended up in that position, and what decisions they made after that is all worthy of discussion.
You'd have to be an idiot to trust a pilot anyways!
-Josh
If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
Erroll 80
QuoteYou're an adult and you get to question and consider. Think for yourselves. Ask questions. Speculate. Make connections with your mind. Think.
Amen.
Quote3) Spot a nice place to land from your spot.
You've never walked the area, so how do you know where there is a nice safe spot?
I like how Tom put it all together. Most times it's a chain of events that cause someone to either die or get injured.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey
QuoteHey, Chris? I'da agreed with you 100% until I was put out over the grape stakes south of Lodi in a big way where we intentionally deployed just above 2000'. There was no option but to land in the grape fields which are narrow rows of grapes staked out on barbed wire.
I suppose you are still correct, because to be on that big sequential you had to have skills recognized by the organizers, and me and two other jumpers managed to put it down into a 5' maintenance trail in between the stakes uninjured and without damaging our gear.
Hmmm. Grist for the mill.
I've been out in those grape vines. I know of what you speak. Yah, narly stuff. I've been over rivers, forests, bonfires, dust devils, corn, beans, etc..... I still had a plan on where I was landing safe. Yep, and I've been on 300 way attempts as a jumper who pulled...umm....just above 2k too...yah...just above 2k. Right over the corn fields with one strip of grass that many seemed to be shooting for. Head on swivel, weighing options....making my approach. All mine. Not the spots fault.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
QuoteChris,
I hope that you aren't referring to my post on Tommy Thompson. The bad spot didn't inherantly cause the fatality, it was merely a contributing factor.
Actually no. I wasn't refering to it. I was commenting on the first post in this thread I believe. Yes, it might be a factor. Factors should be looked at. But the cause of the fatality.....I still believe can never be a bad spot. Only lack of preperation and execution. We train to get out of gear in water. If you can't do it then don't jump near water. Also, if you know you might go in the water (exiting over water) you MUST have flotaion gear.
Then there are the others. "He was trying to get back from a bad spot that caused him to turn low and hit the ground." When they use the word "cause" it's a powerful statement. It had better be THE cause if they are going to use it. Actually, the jumper hit the ground because they pulled on one toggle and didn't let it up in time to get wings level before impact.
This wasn't the original intent of this thread but it has been a good debate. I've stated what I think. Others have stated what they think. The lurkers can take away what they want.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
QuoteHere's a situation for you. Eloy boogie. The five groups in front of you take too long. You ask for a go around and you get, "No go arounds". Now you either ride the plane down, or you get out. Maybe using Eloy is a bad example, cause there is just too much open space. But what if, you do get out, and for some reason you land in a ditch and break your ankle. You land in that ditch cause you've never landed over there, and didn't know it was there. You had never walked that landing area before. Can you blame it on the spot?
According to BillVon's rules of canopy sizing it is your own fault because you are supposed to be able to land on a incline....slope...quarter brake turns...etc....
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
Tom, as usual, I agree with everything you said. Yes, bad spot is a factor in some fatalities. It is not the cause. As we look at causes in NTSB reporting we know that usually the last link in that chain is going to be listed as the "proximate" cause. I know...we are now arguing semantics. I think the point has gotten across though.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
Quotechris, sorry i didn't put a few wink wink nudgenudge's on there and then backed you up. thought it wuz implied.
Damn...I hate it when the humor goes over my head. Sorry dude.
...and with that....I'm spent.....
Erroll 80
Quote
This wasn't the original intent of this thread
Indeed. The original intent has been lost completely and I have gained very little insight into what people think about the topic. Pity.
QuoteQuote
This wasn't the original intent of this thread
Indeed. The original intent has been lost completely and I have gained very little insight into what people think about the topic. Pity.
Oh stop....thread creep happens all the time.
QuoteQuote3) Spot a nice place to land from your spot.
You've never walked the area, so how do you know where there is a nice safe spot?
I like how Tom put it all together. Most times it's a chain of events that cause someone to either die or get injured.
Yes, a chain of events leads to it. I think these chains start with the jumpers.
I've never walked the area, studied it, or even seen pictures of it. I guess that's why I'd ask for aerial photos and a briefing about what's around. I'd like to know my outs - if any.
If I find I am told "Long spot means you are screwed" I guess I'll have to ride the plane down on a long spot - read BREAK THE CHAIN! If I'm long I'm probably the last one out anyway (I'm low time) and that means that, if so, there ain't no problem pulling at 6,500 instead of 4k. Additional time to fly back or deal with a malfunction then fly back - read BREAK THE CHAIN.
The spot is wrong and people yelling "GO GO GO" I step aside and say "Be my guest." By then it's too long for them, too. BREAK THE CHAIN.
I'M responsible for ME. I manage my risks. Others may be content with those risks. We read about a lot of them on the Incidents forum. I don't want to be a lesson learned.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteIf I'm long I'm probably the last one out anyway (I'm low time) and that means that, if so, there ain't no problem pulling at 6,500 instead of 4k
FYI, at the bigger boogies, there is a problem pulling that high.
Maybe there will be more jumpers riding the plane down in order to break that chain
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey
Well, I'm a newbie, and I know you are right on that one!
Wonderful discussion, though. It opens my heretofor squinted eyes.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Wonderful discussion, though. It opens my heretofor squinted eyes.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
AirCav 0
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There was an entire load dropped into I think Lake erie.
100% bad spot.
----------------------------------------------------------
It was not a"SPOT" at all. It was improper radar identification by Cleveland Center. There was no such thing as GPS, no transponder on the aircraft and you can't spot on top of a complete overcast.
The pilot requested his position from ATC and he was told he was over Ortner Field! They exited.
Wrong airplane, the rest is history sorry to say.
Ironically I had just met 10 of them the week before in Wooster Ohio doing competition water jumps in a "Hit and Swim" meet.
There was an entire load dropped into I think Lake erie.
100% bad spot.
----------------------------------------------------------
It was not a"SPOT" at all. It was improper radar identification by Cleveland Center. There was no such thing as GPS, no transponder on the aircraft and you can't spot on top of a complete overcast.
The pilot requested his position from ATC and he was told he was over Ortner Field! They exited.
Wrong airplane, the rest is history sorry to say.
Ironically I had just met 10 of them the week before in Wooster Ohio doing competition water jumps in a "Hit and Swim" meet.
GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843
kallend 2,106
Quote------------------------------------------------------------
There was an entire load dropped into I think Lake erie.
100% bad spot.
----------------------------------------------------------
It was not a"SPOT" at all. It was improper radar identification by Cleveland Center. There was no such thing as GPS, no transponder on the aircraft and you can't spot on top of a complete overcast.
The pilot requested his position from ATC and he was told he was over Ortner Field! They exited.
Wrong airplane, the rest is history sorry to say.
Ironically I had just met 10 of them the week before in Wooster Ohio doing competition water jumps in a "Hit and Swim" meet.
Well, if "spotting" is defined as determining the correct exit point to land in a desired place, then anytime one lands off can be dismissed as "not a spot at all".
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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