canopy control question

[aliengirl 0]

When I'm "playing" under canopy, I never know how much I can do. I usually stay pretty conservative with my toggle turns, etc.. How far would I have to push it in order for my canopy to collapse or something equally as frightening to happen? Keep in mind, I'm talking about canopy turns way above the ground (I usually pull really high), so that isn't an issue here.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated!

[skybrat68 0]

Well, I have 260 jumps and I still haven't had the nerve to collapse my canopy. According to Scott Miller's canopy control course, it's important to know the stall point and intentionally stall it to know where that point is and what it feels like when that happens. If I understand it correctly, to stall the canopy, you find the stall point by pulling down on both toggles until you start feeling it rock back and forth. Then I think the canopy kinda shimmers, which I believe is when you let up so the canopy will reinflate. People have told me they do it all the time and it's a blast but still, I can't find the nerve to do it. Maybe it's a trust issue cos I don't like to mess with something that's working properly - if it ain't broke, don't fix it right?

As far as accidentally collapsing the canopy from playing around, I think it depends on what type of canopy you have. I know someone that had a cut away on her first or second jump on her new Lotus by burying a toggle too hard and the canopy simply spun up into a ball of shit.

I'm ultra-conservative under canopy seeing as how I broke my foot on Level II so I don't play around too much. My canopy is simply a safe way to the ground.

[philly51 0]

Although I'm not a Crw dog or an instructor, you might consider doing riser (front and rear) turns to see the difference between those and toggle turns. Be conservative.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"

[frankiebrina 0]

Do it!! According to the canopy control course I had with Scott Miller, it's great to get you in tune with your canopy and it's very safe even if it did scare me the first couple of times.

If you pull both toggles down as far as they can go and it does not fold in hALF, rap the toggle a few times in your hand and pull both all the way down. The canopy will fold in half!!! release slowly and it will return to its original form.
This is actually what you have to do in one of the jumps of his course.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

What Frankie said....

It also will tell you exactly how far you can flare before stall!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[skyyhi 0]

I will "spiral" my canopy (360's) several times without letting up. I usually pull the toggle ALL the way down. The spin is pretty fast and fun. . .though I understand that it could twist up into a ball of shit when you do that on a highly loaded elliptical canopy. I am still flying student gear so pretty safe. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[WeakMindedFool 0]

BTW...my coach tells me (I'm sure someone will tell me how wrong I am) with the toggles burried I should get 4 seconds of flare then the canopy should stall...

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I have whipped toggle turns as far as they'd go on a Sabre II. It's fun! :) Stall the canopy, too. You can stall it with your toggles (you may need to take a few wraps), and you can stall it with your rear risers (this will be easier to do). make sure when you let up from a stall, you do so easily. And, do this up high (above 2500). You don't want to be afraid of your canopy. Scott Miller has an essential skills course you might want to look into, it's not very expensive and worth it.

Angela.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Well, I have 260 jumps and I still haven't had the nerve to collapse my canopy.

I did...but as an accident. I didn't know that it would "collapse"...I thought it would "rock back". I'd never been able to stall a canopy even though I'd tried...and one time I pulled both toggles down all the way and held it...never did rock back, just slowed down and I spent some time going, "wow...this is so peaceful...." and looking at the scenery and enjoying the slowness of the canopy...
then all of a sudden it felt like I'd hit turbulance..I looked up to see a mess of crap above my head that looked like a canopy in a snivel. I let my toggles back up, it reinflated, and I was done playing at that point with my heart racing...scared the crap out of me.



haven't done it since...
(although I did give myself line twists by pulling a left toggle down too far too quickly... )

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[ZoneRat 0]

I'm not an instructor. Talk to them first.

Here are my thoughts on it.

Well above your hard deck, turn 90° then opposet 180°. Increase the strength of those turns until you almost or actually do invoke a line twist. Then you know where the edge of that envelope is.

Try rear riser stalls before toggle induced stall. Pull both rear risers slowly until the canopy stalls. A rear riser stall is not very exciting, but you'll know it when it happens. But it's pretty underwhelming. Then you'll know where the egde of that envelope is. It's good to know as you may need to land a canopy on rear risers one day (if a break line snaps for example).

Full toggle stalls are very exciting. When I do them, my canpy flares, slows, after several seconds, more than I ever think it wil take, the canopy will eventually starts to soften. Then it "bowties" (folds backwards). I feel as though a rug has been pulled out from under me. It's a very violent ride at that point. I ride it for a bit, then I lift both togles up evenly, and the canopy reinflates. Sometimes with a turn. My heart always races after a full toggle stall.

Talk to your instructors before trying any of this, and be sure that you're well above your hard deck and that there is no canopy traffic near by.

and have fun.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[sdctlc 0]

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I usually pull the toggle ALL the way down. The spin is pretty fast and fun. . .though I understand that it could twist up into a ball of shit when you do that on a highly loaded elliptical canopy. I am still flying student gear so pretty safe. . .

On most canopies you can spin it up if you jam the toggle down. BUT if you initiate the turn a little and get your momentum going in the right direction you can really get the toggle down and keep it down for the fun fast spin. Gettig your momentum going is key since it is less likely that the canopy will spin faster then you (twist up above you) if you are starting to go the direction.. Hope that made sense

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[elfanie 0]

Quote

On most canopies you can spin it up if you jam the toggle down. BUT if you initiate the turn a little and get your momentum going in the right direction you can really get the toggle down and keep it down for the fun fast spin.

My problem is that once the spin starts, I don't seem to have the arm strength to hold the toggle all the way down...I can only hold it about halfway down.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

You're not loading enough, likely. Although, I only load 1:1 and I can do this no problem. It could be you lack upper body strength. Or, maybe because it's a square?

I don't remember if I had problems on the Sabre 190 or not. I don't recall not being able to hold the toggle down, though.

Angela.

[AndyMan 7]

Playing up high is the best time for you to discover for yourself the capabilities of your canopy.

Collapsing a canopy isn't something you should fear, provided that you do it at an appropriate altitude - above 2000 feet. Unless you're flying a high performance canopy, which I hope you're not, collapsing your canopy is no more dangerous then the opening you just went through, and has the same issues as that opening... IE, line twists and the possibility of a spinning malfunction. As long as you're at sufficient altitude, the risk of these malfunctions should hardly stop you from practicing stall recovery, with the posibility of an occaisional collapse.

Practice aggresive toggle turns and see how the canopy dives. Practice front and rear riser turns to know the difference. Practice flat turns until you can do them quickly with minimal altitude loss. Dive your canopy, then use the toggles to plane out the canopy quickly.

Up high is the time to learn the skills that can save your life when you need them down low.

Don't fear collapsing your canopy up high because you already know how to deal with any issues you may cause.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[elfanie 0]

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You're not loading enough, likely. Although, I only load 1:1 and I can do this no problem. It could be you lack upper body strength. Or, maybe because it's a square?

I don't remember if I had problems on the Sabre 190 or not. I don't recall not being able to hold the toggle down, though.

Angela.

I'm relatively strong on upper body strength..although not compared to most men. I can pull the toggle all the way down..but then the force of the turn is such that it becomes too much for my arm to hold all the way down (I usually end up pulling it up to about chest level because that's as far as I can hold it)

It's more like the centrifical force pulls hard enough that I can't hold it full down...

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[The111 1]

Scott Miller told me this after an "incident" I had (see below), and it's the best advice I've ever received. It should be common sense, but obviously it wasn't to me. Don't ever make any control input blindly (i.e. I will pull this toggle 2 inches, or all the way down, or whatever). Make inputs slowly and dynamically, observing what happens, and it should be obvious when the canopy is nearing its limits. If you wanted to stop your car at a red light, you wouldn't wait until 100 ft away and push on the brake with 13 lbs of force. You'd start applying brake dynamically and adjust as necessary to get where you need to.

On jump 50 I flew a demo Sabre2 170. At 2200 or so I was finished a hard toggle 360 one way (toggle all the way down), I let the toggle up, and before my momentum bled off I yanked the other toggle down all the way. I intended on this being my last maneuver since I was getting near 2k. The momentum of my body kept going in the direction of the first turn while the canopy turned the opposite way. It spun up quite a few twists and started spiralling slow, then faster (a toggle was locked down by the twists). Some people say it probably would have righted itself with enough time, being a large docile Sabre2 and all, but when I was at 1800 and the speed of the spiral was still increasing, I cut away. It wasn't a textbook cutaway either, but that's another story.

Anyway, hope that illustrates why you don't want to just do things quickly and arbtrarily, even when you are high. Always use small inputs and understand what they do before you increase them. If your canopy hasn't returned to steady level flight yet from the previous maneuver, it won't respond the same to the next control input (compared to if you do let it return to normal flight).

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[bch7773 0]

stalling the canopy is both fun and scary. Just make sure you let up the toggles slowly after it collapses. if you jerk them back up, the canopy pops, and swings you around pretty violently. thats not a good thing

and like someone else said, its important that before doing a hard spiral, do a small turn first, then pull the toggle all the way down. don't just go from full flight to one toggle buried in 1 motion. I've gotten line twists by not doing that even on a sabre loaded under 1:1

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Croc 0]

You might want to check out the video "Fly Like a Pro." John LeBlanc recommends learning to fly in deep brakes. It's a great confidence builder.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy