scottjaco 0 #1 February 5, 2004 I've noticed that the Stilleto/Vengance is the only "high performance canapy" that is available in sizes larger than 120 sq ft. Why don't they make larger Velocity/Katana/vx27/xaos27 canopies for people that want to have the high peformance at a safe wingloading? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #2 February 5, 2004 maybe because these canopies need high wingloading...---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 February 5, 2004 QuoteWhy don't they make larger Velocity/Katana/vx27/xaos27 canopies for people that want to have the high peformance at a safe wingloading? Well, I'll leave the debate of "required WL for proper performance" to folks with more knowledge/experience then I... I wanted to make a different point. A guy like myself. In the next year or so (900-ish more jumps) I'm wanting to go X-braced. The largest "normal" size is a 120, thus I would load the canopy at 2.3333(etc):1, where I would rather have a wingloading of 2.1-2.2:1, so I would really "need" a 135 for that. Unfortunately, guys my size/build don't seem to be the norm in the sport, so I don't really see that happening soon, even if I *did* hold my breath. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #4 February 5, 2004 Call George at Precision. The Xaos is scalable but I don't Know how big he'll make. Also with the Icarus VX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #5 February 5, 2004 There are a few out there. The Samurai, Cobalt, and Crossfire come to mind. As far as the crossbraced ones: I think that the cross braces are only there to allow greater wing loadings - there would be no point in having them with a low wing loading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #6 February 5, 2004 Quotemaybe because these canopies need high wingloading So I need a 2:1 or higher wingloading to get the cross braces to work properly? Why is this? I might just want the advantages of a cross braced canopy without downsizing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #7 February 5, 2004 The Katana will be available in 135 and 150's in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #8 February 5, 2004 QuoteIn the next year or so (900-ish more jumps) I'm wanting to go X-braced. The largest "normal" size is a 120, thus I would load the canopy at 2.3333(etc):1, where I would rather have a wingloading of 2.1-2.2:1, so I would really "need" a 135 for that. It seems like I've seen the Xaos 21 advertised in sizes up to a 135. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #9 February 5, 2004 Dave the Xaos 27 flies huge. Come to Spacie and you can jump my79! A 135 would probably pack like a 180. You'd have to put it in like a J-2 Jav! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #10 February 5, 2004 >>Why is this? I might just want the advantages of a cross braced canopy without downsizing.<< What advantage do you perceive that is not dependent on a high wing loading? ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #11 February 5, 2004 Why? You really don't need the benifits of Crossbraces until about a 1.7+ wingloading. Other then that they are added bulk, added pack volume and added cost with no benifit. Xbraced canopies are made to be flown hard and at the very limits of canopy flight. They are not for everyone. IMHO way too many people are flying them for the wrong reasons. They are flying them as status items.. not to get the last possible proformance out of a parachute that they can. This post is even proof of it. People are more worried about flying "high" proformance canopies then getting the max out of the canopy they have.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #12 February 5, 2004 this is why I said MAYBE, really hypothetical... certainly a crossbraced high perf canopy will not be flying very well at 1.5 or less. and apparently also as stated above crossbraced canopies seem to have a larger packing volume---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #13 February 5, 2004 QuoteYou really don't need the benifits of Crossbraces until about a 1.7+ wingloading I don't know a lot about cross braces, don't they maximize canopy pressurization? so you basically have more usable canopy and less drag? Couldn't this be utilized in all canopies and not just the tiny ones? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #14 February 5, 2004 QuoteIMHO way too many people are flying them for the wrong reasons. They are flying them as status items.. not to get the last possible proformance out of a parachute that they can. This post is even proof of it. People are more worried about flying "high" proformance canopies then getting the max out of the canopy they have. I 2nd what Phree said ... I know of a couple of people who fly (or want) a cross-braced canopy and they aren't even close to maxing out their existing canopy. Fortunately for myself, I still have the CrossFire2 139, 129, 119, 109 sizes to max out before I ever think of needing a cross-braced canopy (not even sure if I will ever fly one period). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #15 February 5, 2004 QuoteIMHO way too many people are flying them for the wrong reasons. They are flying them as status items.. some people also fly Stiletto's for status reason, which IMO is WRONG. They fly them the same a student would fly a Navigator.---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #16 February 5, 2004 They increase the ridigity of the canopy by minimizing distortion of the canopy. At a higher loading a result is higher internal pressure, but thats minimal compared to distortion factors. Things like HMA lines, Vectran, thinner airfoils, steeper trims and other factors increase the canopies airspeed, but thats some times at the price of glide ratio. Glide on a few of the Xbraced canopies is horrible in full flight.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #17 February 5, 2004 This is true, but the drag that the crossbraces are counteracting is caused by overloading a standard construction canopy. Meaning that crossbraces don't do much at low loadings. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 February 5, 2004 QuoteI've noticed that the Stilleto/Vengance is the only "high performance canapy" that is available in sizes larger than 120 sq ft. Not true. The Nitron/Nitro is avaliable in sizes up to a 170, the Vision is avaliable up to a 150, the FX, VX, and Xaos canopys have been built as large as 135's and 150's. QuoteWhy don't they make larger Velocity/Katana/vx27/xaos27 canopies for people that want to have the high peformance at a safe wingloading? Some of the "performance of these canopies is due to the higher wingloadings. Also there is very little demand ans a more reactive canopy is unsafe in the hands of an inexperienced jumper. I don't think the way you used "safe" wingloading is fair either. I've made 50 or so landings safely at over a 3.0 wingloading. A certian moderator on this website used to jump at close to a 3.0 wingloading at a DZ well over 4000 MSL. So what's safe? Crossbraced canopys are not needed at lighter loading so they are not marketed in larger sizes as most prople would not want to spend an extra $500+ for something they won't need. The Katana specificaly has been released in sizes that have passed the huge number of qualifications PD has for their products. PD has plans to release it in at least 2 more sizes in the future (135 and 150) however not untill they are happy with all aspects of it's performance.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #19 February 5, 2004 The Katana will be released in a 135 and 150. They just aren't ready yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #20 February 6, 2004 ", don't they maximize canopy pressurization?" no. cross braces simply reduce spanwise distortion on the top skin of the airfoil by restraining the non loaded ribs from floating up higher. dan<><> www.extremefly.comDaniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #21 February 6, 2004 I would love to see a canopy with the x braces up close so I could understand how they are able to keep the top surface flat. Are there any diagrams on the net? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 February 6, 2004 QuoteI would love to see a canopy with the x braces up close so I could understand how they are able to keep the top surface flat. Feel free to tap me on the shoulder, and ask me about it the next time we run into each other. I'd be happy to show you.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
