Static Line vs. AFF

[mailin 0]

In the "Should I jump again" thread there was a mini discussion about static line vs. aff and I didn't want to see it get displaced. I've been on this site for 6 months now, and I don't recall seeing this subject come up, so excuse me if it has but I'm really interested.

I'm starting training in the spring - which I'm assuming to AFF, but my DZ also offers Static Line. I know nothing about either, other than what was read here. I will tell you that I have an unnatural fear at the moment, of canopy control and landing. My first tandem (out of 3) had a botched landing and I'm quite terrified of landings, so much so that I didn't even offer to help land the second time.

Is it possible to incorporate aspects of both into my training? Has anyone heard of it being done?

Looking to learn, so advice or foresight from instructors is much appreciated, as well as those that have gone through both - not just for me, but for other aspiring students.

Thanks all,

Jennifer

Arianna Frances

[AggieDave 6]

AFF. S/L is an outdated system, you should learn more and learn faster then with S/L.

The new ISP has a lot more canopy control in it, so if they're using the ISP properly, then you'll get a LOT of canopy control work done. Rearriser turns, front riser turn (up high), braked approaches for landing...a lot of stuff.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[benny 0]

Quote

AFF. S/L is an outdated system, you should learn more and learn faster then with S/L.

The new ISP has a lot more canopy control in it, so if they're using the ISP properly, then you'll get a LOT of canopy control work done. Rearriser turns, front riser turn (up high), braked approaches for landing...a lot of stuff.

Yeah, I actually feel that I'm learning more about CC than freefall even though I'm doing AFF....

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[dterrick 0]

Heya Jennifer
Great question, and I agree that it's been a while since anyone discussed it. I'm sure you'll get some of the usual "search it" replies - and that's good too because a lot of the information is just hidden in the archives.

I did static line ...well... Instructor Assisted Deployment (IAD, the Canadian evolution of s/l). Given it was a bit cheaper and offered me many more chances to fly the canopy I chose it.

"Unlike you" , I love canopy flight. Since every skydive ends with a landing, I figured if I could be good at just one thing, that thing should be canopy flight . The transition to solo deployment/short delays was frustrating at times but the payoff is having a rock solid exit nd a love for low altitude jumps (taking 8 seconds from 3k is a blast when you plan for it
By the time you get to 30-40 jumps or so, there will likely be no differentiating your skills based on training. Early on you'll be better under canopy yet soon you'll catch up on freefall skills.

It's all good.

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[rgoetsch 0]

Hi-
You list Jumptown as your home DZ- they no longer do static line or "AFF" they have transistioned to ISP. If you have any further questions about the program you can contact the DZ directly.
S/L was offered on a limited basis year before last- I think that was the last time.

See ya in the spring.
rg
.

"If you're not on the centerline -you're out of control"

[Unstable 9]

Here is how Unstable (in his uneducated, low jump-number, smart ass opinion ) thinks...

There are two DZ around here, one does SL and the Other Tandem/AFF. Both the DZO's (or our S&TA) agree on the basic idea that by the time you get your A-lic, a jumper that went through the SL system will have the same skills as one that went through the AFF system, assuming that each had good instructors.
I trained on the Dope Rope, & I will be getting my Rope Rating here very shortly. I do not believe that it is an outdated system, and I maintain that for myself, as a piss poor college kid, I would never have had the opportunity to become a skydiver had I had to pay the higher prices of AFF.
After Category E, arn't they pretty much both the same?? IMO, yes.

=========Shaun ==========

[Harksaw 0]

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I would never have had the opportunity to become a skydiver had I had to pay the higher prices of AFF.

Thats exactly my story. No way I could have afforded it, I probably wouldn't have decided to try to get my liscense if I had to do AFF.

From what I know, it isn't any less safe or educational, so why pay more? /me = cheap bastard

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[Unstable 9]

Quote

Thats exactly my story. No way I could have afforded it, I probably wouldn't have decided to try to get my liscense if I had to do AFF.

The other DZ I jump at Does tandem progression, where you do three tandems then begin your aff. I got my A-license for what it would take to do just those three tandems.....

=========Shaun ==========

[MarkM 0]

I did SL up to my 15 second delays, trained for AFP then graduated AFF. I don't really see one training method as being superior than the other.

[nightjumps 1]

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S/L is an outdated system, you should learn more and learn faster then with S/L.

Whoa, Cowboy. First, S/L & IAD are still the most used instructional methodologies in the world. Second, She mentioned canopy control & landing issues. One can use the S/L methodology to have a student focus strictly on that (no having to do the dive flow AND canopy control AND landing)... takes one variable out of the leaning process (dive flow).
Finally, with the new ISP, all three instructional methodologies can be used at any point in the curriculum to assist the student with those "problem" areas to help them get over any learning hurdles.

I use all three in my AFP program.

We start them out on Tandems, then FJC, then a couple of S/Ls from 3500 feet (which; 1) meets the A license requirement, and B) gets them used to wearing their own rg for the first couple of times without introducing a complex dive flow... a couple of easy wear your own rig, land your own gear thing).

Then we migrate them to an AFF level three (6th jump) with a single JM, then AFF level 4 and on from there. There have been a couple who we've put back on Tandems for turns while in the AFF portion.

There's been a couple that we've put back on S/L for canopy control and put them out at 8,000 to play, get the feel and comply with the "A" license canopy control portions.

IMO, we shouldn't be looking at what's fastest, we have 25 jumps to get them their "A." In performance-oriented training, not everyone learns the same (and I would venture to say most don't learn in seven AFF dives). We have three types of instructional methodolgies and we now have more means and opportunity for the student to walk away with a feeling of success after each dive than the "must repeat" AFF Level "X."

Out dated? No. just another training weapon in the arsenal. If they jerk the trigger on a .45, drop them back to a .22 and work them back up to the .45.

More time vested - yes. Greater student retention - also, yes.

[bch7773 0]

don't forget to search first. I found these threads in safety and training in like 3 minutes. sorry if i sound harsh, but this topic is like RSL vs no RSL... its a been debated to death.

there is a lot of good information in these threads:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=400383;search_string=static%20line%20aff;#400383

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=244000;search_string=static%20line%20aff;#244000

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=399588;search_string=static%20line%20aff;#399588

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=186164;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Unstable 9]

Whoah, Who called the Repost Police????

=========Shaun ==========

[xdoctor 0]

I'm in the middle of my static line jumps now, the wyoming winter and a minor plane crash shut us down for the winter. I havn't done aff, but i know that if that were the only training program available, i never would have done this. The cost is just too high. I'm paying $45 for my static line student jumps and it got me on the DZ where my buddy helped me find a used rig I picked up at about 1/3 its value. The way I look at it, with the money I saved by doing s/l I paid for my own rig. Now i've just got to get these last two bastards out of the way before I can use it.

The flying hamster of doom rains coconuts upon your pitiful city.

[JYorkster 0]

I won't give you all the same arguments everyone else has, although some are valid. In simple terms, look at the money and the area you are concerned about. For a very similar amount of money, S/L will give you many more jumps..which equates to more canopy rides-the area you are most concerned about.

Not to say one is better than the other, but $$ per jump is also something to consider.

Rock

[jimmytavino 16]

Static Line ... AFF... Tandem Progression

... each has it's value and place in a student training program...
Maybe a deciding factor should be the type of AIRCRAFT available to you at the DZ where you choose to start jumping.....If you have access to large planes,,,and if exit altitude is normally 13,500 or more,, then AFF and Tandem make sense... Quick comfortable ( as long as the plane isn't "packed with people" )
rides to altitude,
plenty of room in the door,, for you and your instructors,,, 60 seconds or more in freefall,, and 3 to 4 thousand feet of canopy time..will give you the comfort, and time to make the most of your dives, and accomplish more of your targeted learning objectives..
On the other hand if the dz uses a cessna,, AND if they still offer S/L... it may be best to go that route..
The ride to exit alt. (3200 feet ) is quicker,,( i. e. less time to stress about it) you are the only one on the step at exit... as opposed to trying to squeeze main side and reserve side instructors out there with you,,, and you will have a chance to get comfortable with your gear, and with canopy flight, ahead of having to perform multiple duties, while in freefall.... Also the ride to altitude in a cessna for a tandem or aff will usually only allow you 10,500 feet or so,,,,, in which case you still pay the big bucks,, but IMHO.. get shorted 3 to 4 thousand feet....
So ask around. It would be interesting to see how many tandem and AFF students, who did their # 1 jump from a cessna,,, followed through and made more jumps,,,, as compared to those who flew in a turbine,, with 10 to 20 other happy skydivers,,, those who got to watch multiple groups exit ahead of them,,those who were led to a large door without a STEP,,,( can you say poised exit?)to deal with ,, and who did a freefall of 10,000 feet or more....If you have access to big planes,, go big...but If your dz of choice only has a cessna or two ,,,, then maybe S/L will make more sense....
There is nothing wrong with becoming comfortable and proficient at climbing out and exiting solo ,,, at 3 grand or so.....thats the ONLY way it was done many years ago...
Then ,, as you progess and you DO get more and more altitude,, the comfort cushion simply increases.
Regardless of your choice,, rely on your instructors
and learn as much as you can about technigues, safety and gear..... have fun!!! jmy
edit for spelling.

[rocketdog 0]

Aggie,
Static Line is not outdated at all.... ?
Static Line is great because students get a basic feel for freefall and canopy skills. This is just my opinion, but as an instructor I would rather have a first-time S/L student than a first-time AFF student. Aff = 60 seconds of unpredictability (not to discredit AFF instructors in any way)
It's like comparing apples with oranges

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[Pendragon 1]

In the UK, I'd bet that more people do S/L than AFF it's really expensive out here. I did AFF, but then I didn't really care... One DZ that I've been to said S/L was dying out; where I trained, much more S/L than AFF gets taught...

Regardless, once you've got your "A", it doesn't matter so much... although I have noticed:

AFF graduates aren't really worried about freefalling with others (that's all they've ever done) and seem to progress to formation skydiving more quickly, but they're scared of low altitude "hop & pops", don't always land too well (less experience to a given level I suppose) and I wonder how well some might perform their emergency drills if they had to... (BTW, I realise that this is being addressed in some places, but I'm just going on my own observations)

S/L graduates often appear to better canopy pilots but struggle with formations initially.

All that being said, even just 30+ jumps post "A" qualification is likely to even it all up...
...and everyone is different!

(I'm an ex HG pilot, so landings were never going to be a problem, hence I chose AFF... )

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[AggieDave 6]

I guess I'm looking at it from the program we (SD Aggieland) uses. Which is basically the ISP. 2 working tandems, then on to AFF level 3/4 with one JM. Then they finish AFF and we actually use the USPA Coaches how the ISP wants coaches used.

Something we do different, is we intigrate Skydive U techniques into our program.

When comparing our program to the S/L program I went through and the program that a lot of DZs have. AFF/ISP is MUCH more effective in teaching every skill.

The students at SD Aggieland are coming away with an A license with the ability to fly their bodies and their canopies better then I could at 100 jumps, better then a lot of people I've seen at 100 jumps.

There must be a reason.

edit: I went through a S/L progression, I didn't know there was anything else I could do. That's also sort of due to the DZ I learned at, they're fairly old school.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SlyFox 0]

S/L versus AFF? The end result is the same both will get you your A license. The biggest different is the cost.
AFF offers you to chance to jump from 13000 ft from the start and go directly into free fall. So by the time you get your A license you will have a lot more free fall time then that of a student in S/L progression. But each jump you do in the beginning requires two instructors and then down to one. That increases the cost of jumps.
S/L which is the one I ended up doing was a lot more affordable for someone on a limited budget. Next catch to doing S/L is not all dropzones offer it. I don't think it is because it is out dated but they make more money from the AFF and as far as that goes a dropzone is a business and they have to make money to keep it open for all of us to have a place to jump. Back to S/L progression though. Each slowly builds off of the last one, increase the height of the jump and length of the free fall.
As far as mixing them together. It is possible to start one and then switch to the other. The SIM (Skydiving Instruction Manual) list what must be done if you switch. Good luck and have fun.

*****Why would anyone jump from a perfectly good airplane? Because it isn't much fun if it's broke.****

[SlyFox 0]

It sounds like you are putting the student first at your DZ. Everyone is different but the goal is the the same, become a safe license skydiver.

*****Why would anyone jump from a perfectly good airplane? Because it isn't much fun if it's broke.****

[nightjumps 1]

Thank you. When I first took over, I ran some numbers and the attrition rate was horrible.

Numerous walking away after AFF1.
Numerous walking away after 1 Tandem.
Lost more on Level 4 (one JM, turns, etc).

By taking the entire ISP and using it to our advantage, focusing on which methodology would help the student overcome which barrier in which category, we could use any of the methods to overcome the hurdle and they all apply towards the end result of getting the "A."

I'm not going to say we keep them all, but we have more completing their "A" now than before.

This past weekend, we had a group of 7 come out for "fun" Tandems. I asked them how many even "think" that if they enjoy the expereince might want to go on and learn to become skydivers... cause if you even "think" you might, let's make it a working skydive (AFF level 1 while on Tandem).

Three chose to go that route. It took us an extra ten minutes of training to rehearse... COA, 3 PRCPs, COA, Wave & pull.

Only one missed pull time. All three immediately signed up for AFP.

I like the new ISP. I like the ability to use all the methodologies no matter which category you're in. It works. Nobody "Repeats." For us, its a 25 jump program. Some get there in 7-9 jumps, some take all 25. All have a greater opportunity to become licensed skydivers.

[Perky77 0]

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There must be a reason.

How many dz's do the level of coaching we do? the ones I have been around, as soon as your cleared for solos your own your own, any additional training is up to the student to seek out and pay extra for. We push coaching as you know. That is what I see the big difference between SL and AFF, I don't agree with only a few coached jumps after 7 levels of AFF, I think they (students) should have to be briefed and debriefed by a coach or instructor even if they are doing a solo.
How many other dz's do what we do every week, to make sure our students are getting their "money's worth"? Not many, in my opinion.
To sum up my opinion, It falls on the level instruction given. Why did I get my coaches rating? Because I didn't like the level of coaching available, and willing, to me as a student, So I did something about it, and I sought out coaching as a student and after, still.

"Sacrifice is a part of life. It is supposed to be. It's not something you regret . It's something to aspire to." Mitch Albom

[AggieDave 6]

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How many other dz's do what we do every week, to make sure our students are getting their "money's worth"? Not many, in my opinion.

Perky, as you know, I fully agree with you on that!

Honestly, its too bad, since it really does create a better skydiver, someone who's motivated to jump and learn and that entire vibe translates to a better DZ over all.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyangel2 2]

Jen,
Sit down with the DZO or the head JM from the place you're thinking of doing your student jumps at. Have a paper and pen ready to write down the answer to your questions. Either way, you're going to be in the sky.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[oldfart 0]

I strongly advise AFF.I went through S/L training back in the 70's,T-10's and learning stability was damn near impossible.It seemed like I was stuck on 5 second delays forever.I wish AFF was an option then.I finally got off student status after about 40 jumps but still hadn't gotten freefall stability down pat.I finally got some one on one help and was OK after that.
I had a 15 year hiatus from the sport and when I got back in I took an AFF refresher course.What a difference!S/L is for military Airborne guys,skydivers are freefallers and that's where you need to be.
If canopy control bothers you,most DZ's offer radio contact with a grouond instructor.Just make them understand that you don't want to give up the radio ground guy until your're comfortable.Can't enjoy the sport if you're not comfortable.