chaoskitty 0 #26 January 23, 2004 Quote he is working to serve you, you are the customer. He is an employee of the company there to serve you. Soooo.. are you flying us this weekend, Chris?? ps- you stole my avatar.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 January 23, 2004 QuoteWell you're an idiot for presuming that i jump there anymore or that I agreed with it. Read what I wrote stud....Im not calling you an idiot...I said. QuoteYou are an idiot to allow a DZO or pilot tell you what is safe with your ass. now if you do that...fine you are an idiot. You are stupid to not be able to understand english however. See the difference?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #28 January 23, 2004 QuoteSpotting is a dyeing art and is becoming more and more so every year. Sparky As long as pilots are using GPSes with batteries, there will be spotting practice. Plus sometimes (not sure how often) some of our pilots don't turn the GPS on. I think it's fun when they let me tell them when and how far to turn onto jump run. Of course, then I'm usually too proud to ask for a correction because then it's my fault. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivegirl 0 #29 January 23, 2004 Hey, relax. You can make a point without being hostile. It will lessen the chance of coming across like a jerk & make others more receptive to what you have to say.Pink Mafia Sis #26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 January 23, 2004 Did you read This post where he called me an idiot? It is clear he didn't understand the sentence QuoteYeah and I have landed off there SEVERAL times. Its a bullshit rule. Its MY ass on the line, not the damn pilots. I don't care how many hrs, or how many jumps the guy has...Its MY skydive not his. I have had a pilot in DeLand and I go around on this also...Simple fact if I don't like the spot I don't go...Land the damn plane with me in it..I'll just pack up and leave. You are an idiot to allow a DZO or pilot tell you what is safe with your ass. Never did I CALL him an idiot....I said IF you let the DZO or pilot pick your spot you are an idiot. In another thread Here. I wrote something along the same lines. QuoteYOU are responsable for checking the spot. If you are landing out in the middle of a city with powerlines, and buildings everywhere...I hope the knowledge that a guy that is landing safe in the plane while you could die makes you feel better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #31 January 23, 2004 QuoteSoooo.. are you flying us this weekend, Chris?? ps- you stole my avatar.. Of course I am, if the weather clears, Saturday looks better in the morning, doh! that kinda rules you out I guess... hehehe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #32 January 23, 2004 I thought it was tongue in cheek kind of funny. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #33 January 23, 2004 QuoteAlso, when I fly I do hook pattern jumpruns. I will fly it so that during the turn it is still ok to exit. This freaks some people out. It is also taught at some DZs that if the plane is banking not to exit. This is good advice on some jumps planes as it could put you in close proximity to the tail. hey Chris, can you give an example of a plane where a turn would be a problem like this?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #34 January 23, 2004 Beech 18's come to mind right away. King Airs are some what better but still not an Otter on the cleareance.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #35 January 23, 2004 QuoteBeech 18's come to mind right away. King Airs are some what better but still not an Otter on the cleareance. OK, but why is it a problem in a coordinated turn? I just don't see why the exit trajectory would be more likely to lead to a tail strike (if that's what you are thinking).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #36 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteSoooo.. are you flying us this weekend, Chris?? ps- you stole my avatar.. Of course I am, if the weather clears, Saturday looks better in the morning, doh! that kinda rules you out I guess... hehehe Well normally,yes, but I havent jumped in three weeks, so I plan on getting out early. We'll see what actually happens though.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #37 January 23, 2004 While it's the skydiver's ass on the line, I have a suspicion that many don't have a clue about what is an acceptable spot. On a big plane, not everyone can have a perfect spot. I can understand why a pilot gets pissed if someone asks for a go around just because the spot is not perfect. And in my experience the first group out often waits longer than is necessary.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #38 January 23, 2004 QuoteSpotting is a dyeing art and is becoming more and more so every year. Sparky True statement. However, the fact of the matter is that unless you calculate the winds at altitude using the formula you won't know where the actual "spot" on the ground is. What skydivers/pilots pretty much do across the board is fly over the DZ into the wind on jump run(cross wind if applicable) and guesstimate on how far from the peas the first group needs to leave. Not an exact science IMO. The second point is, unless the pilot is using a GPS he will not know where 5/10ths past the peas is unless he is able to look down at the ground and is familiar enough with the area to make that determination. More importantly, the average skydiver looking out the door of the A/C has no knowledge of what the winds aloft are or where 5/10ths after might be. So basically what you have is a skydiver who looks out the door to orient himself to where the DZ is, look for other A/C if he is heads up and then jumps when the green light comes on. That is called orienting oneself to the DZ not spotting. As far as I know the only ones teaching TRUE spotting is the Military."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kramer 0 #39 January 23, 2004 QuoteYou were not in my spotting class at the hills? I thought you were? No sir, I was not. If you hold these classes often, I'm sure I'll go through it sometime. I'd like to be able to know how to spot...well. -Kramer The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #40 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteAlso, when I fly I do hook pattern jumpruns. I will fly it so that during the turn it is still ok to exit. This freaks some people out. It is also taught at some DZs that if the plane is banking not to exit. This is good advice on some jumps planes as it could put you in close proximity to the tail. hey Chris, can you give an example of a plane where a turn would be a problem like this? King Air, Caravan. But, they do not carry as many jumpers as an Otter so the jumrun should not be as strung out as an Otters. Soooo...... shouldn't be any problem to get everyone out on one pass right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #41 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteSpotting is a dyeing art and is becoming more and more so every year. Sparky True statement. However, the fact of the matter is that unless you calculate the winds at altitude using the formula you won't know where the actual "spot" on the ground is. What skydivers/pilots pretty much do across the board is fly over the DZ into the wind on jump run(cross wind if applicable) and guesstimate on how far from the peas the first group needs to leave. Not an exact science IMO. The second point is, unless the pilot is using a GPS he will not know where 5/10ths past the peas is unless he is able to look down at the ground and is familiar enough with the area to make that determination. More importantly, the average skydiver looking out the door of the A/C has no knowledge of what the winds aloft are or where 5/10ths after might be. So basically what you have is a skydiver who looks out the door to orient himself to where the DZ is, look for other A/C if he is heads up and then jumps when the green light comes on. That is called orienting oneself to the DZ not spotting. As far as I know the only ones teaching TRUE spotting is the Military. Well, when I train a new pilot to spot an otter we do happen to go over winds aloft, drift, canopy types, penetration, geography, obstacles. So, I guess the Military is not the only one teaching spotting.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #42 January 23, 2004 QuoteThis is true because essentially what happens otherwise is that people that too long int he door and hose the people in the front of the plane. If you don't allow go arounds the people in the front tend to bitch alot and quicken things up The other side of this coin is that the guys in the front now feel they have the right to start bitching when the light comes on. The green light just means the pilot is ok w/ jumpers exiting at their decision. Case in point: At SDC this past summer on a windy day ground winds were 15-20kts from the north and they only got stronger at 3k/ 6k/ etc. The pilot (Not Chrissouth of the DZ. The guys in the front have no idea where we are but decide to start complaining when the light comes on. On that day if we had exited when the bitchin started the guys up front probably would have ended up out of the aircraft over the top and everyone else would have been hosed. Bad spots include short spots as well as long spots. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #43 January 23, 2004 Quote Basically his philosophy is that everyone can get out safely on one pass and make it back to the dz. This is true because essentially what happens otherwise is that people that too long int he door and hose the people in the front of the plane. If you don't allow go arounds the people in the front tend to bitch alot and quicken things up *confused* Ok, please educate this newbie 50-jump wonder... but doesn't this then delve into exit separation and safety? If they are pushing people to exit faster...can't that conflict with adaquate separation upon exit to keep people apart? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #44 January 23, 2004 CSS flies a Casa usually. They have a faster jumprun speed then an Otter so that decreases the ammount of time needed for seperation between groups. Its usually a second or so off of a normal delay. If you are needing 5 seconds in an Otter 4 usually is acceptible in a Casa. Spotting a Casa with a bunch of small groups is a different task then spotting a Kingair or other smaller plane. Usually the Pilots will put the spot so that all grounds have to fly back to the airport. The first group has to fly into the wind the while time, the next group is droped so they open just short of the DZ or right on top, the rest of the groups get spread out from there. With as many as 10-15 groups exiting on a single jump run it can make for a exit window of up to a mile and a half long if people take too long of delays in the door. Being let out a mile and a half from the DZ and opening at 3500 is pushing it to make it to the DZ unless you've got a nice wind at your back.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #45 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteThis is true because essentially what happens otherwise is that people that too long int he door and hose the people in the front of the plane. If you don't allow go arounds the people in the front tend to bitch alot and quicken things up The other side of this coin is that the guys in the front now feel they have the right to start bitching when the light comes on. The green light just means the pilot is ok w/ jumpers exiting at their decision. Case in point: At SDC this past summer on a windy day ground winds were 15-20kts from the north and they only got stronger at 3k/ 6k/ etc. The pilot (Not Chrissouth of the DZ. The guys in the front have no idea where we are but decide to start complaining when the light comes on. On that day if we had exited when the bitchin started the guys up front probably would have ended up out of the aircraft over the top and everyone else would have been hosed. Bad spots include short spots as well as long spots. Ken Dayton road is exactly 1.0 mile from the center turn around on the runway. NOT 1.5 miles. Big difference. And there is plenty of landing area south of the turn around so you aren't 1.0 miles from suitable landing area. We try to use all the available landing area so that we minimize fuel useage. Usually, there is a truck running around to pick people up who land at the sound end. So, don't assume the pilot doesn't know what he's doing. In the summer wind patterns it is VERY typical to turn on the green light crossing Dayton road. Now, if the winds are as strong as you say then yes. But I know I've heard from more than one jumper who did not care to check the actual winds aloft that "well we were over Dayton road!"....yah....and?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #46 January 23, 2004 QuoteWell, when I train a new pilot to spot an otter we do happen to go over winds aloft OK, but do you calculate them to locate the geographical refrence point , ie: the "spot" on the map/ground where the first jumper(s) should exit the A/C? This in turn means you as a pilot must fly over said geographical reference point or "spot" and the jumper can make any corrections left /right and then he exits when he is exactly over said "spot". That is true spotting."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jverley 1 #47 January 23, 2004 My team has a very good way of fixing a short spot. You cannot sit and refuse to go -- tto much shouting -- but your climbout can be painfully slow. We usually have our front float or camera guy give a signal -- adjusting a bootie perhaps -- that tells us all that the spot is short. That being said, we would not do this so that our spot is perfect, just if the spot is so bad that everyone on the plane would be affected.John Arizona Hiking Trails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #48 January 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteSpotting is a dyeing art and is becoming more and more so every year. Sparky True statement. However, the fact of the matter is that unless you calculate the winds at altitude using the formula you won't know where the actual "spot" on the ground is. What skydivers/pilots pretty much do across the board is fly over the DZ into the wind on jump run(cross wind if applicable) and guesstimate on how far from the peas the first group needs to leave. Not an exact science IMO. The second point is, unless the pilot is using a GPS he will not know where 5/10ths past the peas is unless he is able to look down at the ground and is familiar enough with the area to make that determination. More importantly, the average skydiver looking out the door of the A/C has no knowledge of what the winds aloft are or where 5/10ths after might be. So basically what you have is a skydiver who looks out the door to orient himself to where the DZ is, look for other A/C if he is heads up and then jumps when the green light comes on. That is called orienting oneself to the DZ not spotting. As far as I know the only ones teaching TRUE spotting is the Military. You are right. There is a big difference between calculating a "release point" and what sport jumpers consider spotting. If done right, you not only determine a release point + or - form the target, but you also determine what course to fly on the in run. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #49 January 23, 2004 QuoteOn that day if we had exited when the bitchin started the guys up front probably would have ended up out of the aircraft over the top and everyone else would have been hosed. Happens all the time at boogies. good advice - take a look if your first out if you know what you're doing ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #50 January 23, 2004 Quote the average skydiver looking out the door of the A/C has no knowledge of what the winds aloft are or where 5/10ths after might be. I agree. This is why I got some topo maps and marked distance rings on them. I wasn't totally comfortable with "and when the winds are above 40, we're off the edge of this photograph and about two fields down, maybe over that road at the top of the hill - you know which one I'm talking about?..." 'Course, you have to jump out there a few times before a topo map begins to match up to real world. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
