Rear riser turns vs Braked turns when low

[helldog 0]

When put in a situation where you have to make a 'Low" turn, Is a braked turn better than a rear riser turn??? And Why?
Thanks
Jim

[ianmdrennan 2]

If you're low do you really want to be reaching for something that isn't already in your hand (ie. rear risers) - it's not that you can't safely do a flat turn with them but it'll burn time better spent on toggles imo, not to mention you're going to be using the toggles to flare in most scenarios so it seems of little value to use the rears.

It's still good to practise both methods, but I'd venture a guess that you'd most likely use the toggle method in most scenarios.

Edit: Oh yeah if you do a "regular" rear riser turn, you'll pound yourself in just as good as a regular toggle turn.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[VectorBoy 0]

toggles will be more forgiving than rear risers. On rears you can induce a stall much easier . Unsymetrical rear riser inputs close to the stall point are a neat way to helicopter a relativly rectangular canopy and the quickest way to collapse anything tapered or elliptical.

[bch7773 0]

What do you mean helicopter a canopy? is this something you can do on purpose and for fun? someone explain it please.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Samurai136 0]

In addition, there tends to be a bit of oversteer when using rear risers. Toggles/ braked turns are best for achieving the goal of a flat turn.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Ron 10]

Quote

Unsymetrical rear riser inputs close to the stall point are a neat way to helicopter a relativly rectangular canopy

Helicopter a canopy?????

Whats that?

And to answer the first question....

A braked turn using the toggles is the safest way to turn when low. You will lose less altitude, and not gain as much speed as any other way...Several people would be alive today if they knew about (And practiced till it becomes a normal reaction in high stress situation) braked turns.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[gus 1]

Quote

What do you mean helicopter a canopy? is this something you can do on purpose and for fun? someone explain it please.

I think he means twisting it up so fast that your canopy looks like the blades of a helicopter rotating above you. Yes you can do it on purpose but I doubt it would be much fun unless you're up way high with an intentional cutaway rig on
Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[darkwing 5]

Helicopter = the two sides of the canopy flying in opposite directions. i.e., spinning (not turning) around an axis roughly through the canopy center.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[davelepka 4]

First off, to do a flat rear riser turn, you have to grab both rear risers, and in doing so, you will have to put your canopy into full flight (by reaching up to grab the risers). This is a problem because if you are low, and need to do a flat turn, you should already be in brakes entering the turn, and if you are, reaching up for your risers will cause your canopy to dive (as you let up on the toggles).

Second, after you have made an emergency flat turn on risers, you have to transition to toggles to flare, which will use up time and altitude you don't have. Yes, you can flare with the rear risers, but it's not reccomended if your toggles are available. Many experienced jumpers will use the rear risers to flare, but that would not be in an emergency situation if the toggles were available (available as in not tied in knots around your slider, or not stuffed down your jumpsuit after a steering line snapped).

The toggles are the way to go. Thay are already in your hands, and when you come out of your turn, you are already halfway through your flare.

A word on flat turns. Reserve their usage for avoiding obstacles (other jumpers included). A downwind or crosswind landing is a better choice than a flat turn if you are simply wanting to get back into the wind after a poorly planned canopy flight or during an off field landing. A good, full flare, followed by a PLF will allow you to easily handle a down/cross wind landing. A botched flat turn can injure or kill you. So if you have a clear space in front of you, land there, and only if a collision is iminent, use the flat trun, and even then, keep the degree of the turn to the minnimun needed to avoid that collision.

[riddler 0]

Quote

Reserve their usage for avoiding obstacles (other jumpers included).

I don't entirely agree with this. On every jump, I split my time about 50/50 between risers and toggles. I agree that toggles are quicker and more responsive than rear risers, but it makes sense to practice using all your available control inputs. There's only 8 inputs (if you include harness shifting) - practice with all of them.

When I first open, before I do anything else, my hands immediately come up to rear risers. If I open directly toward another canopy, I can pull one rear riser and avoid them quicker than fumbling for toggles. Also, if for some reason, I open absurdly low to the ground, I will be able to setup my upwind approach quicker than reaching for toggles, and without the chance of grabbing quickly for a toggle and missing it.

After safely opening, I then do a "clearing" turn with rear risers to check for canopies within a 360 degree radius (I look first, of course). This also gives me a feel for the riser response, vs. toggle response.

After all this, I collapse my slider, stow it behind my head, and grab toggles. Typically, with toggle still in hand, I'll play with rear, and sometimes front, risers.

Definitely play with rear risers up high - it will give you a sense of the response time (i.e. you typically won't turn as quickly with rear riser as with toggles on larger canopies). Do a 360 with both rear risers and toggles and count seconds for each to prove it to yourself. After that do another 360 with both rear riser and toggle watching your altimeter before every turn. You probably won't see much if any altitude loss on the rear riser turn, vs. the toggle turn.

Also, you can do a flat turn with toggles just as easily as rear riser - pull both toggles down to half brakes and let up on the opposite one that you wish to turn with. You may lose a little more altitude doing a flat turn with toggles, vs. risers, but you will probably be able to do it quicker.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

Quote

What do you mean helicopter a canopy? is this something you can do on purpose and for fun? someone explain it please.

I think he means twisting it up so fast that your canopy looks like the blades of a helicopter rotating above you. Yes you can do it on purpose but I doubt it would be much fun unless you're up way high with an intentional cutaway rig on

Quote

Yes Gus, I've seen some guys ride the bucking sabre as they twist and spiral down like a helicopter from way up high for a few hundred feet. I've also seen paraglider videos of same done more smoothly

Gus

• Quote

[davelepka 4]

The title of the thread, and the question being asked is in regards to turns made when low. Every jumper should feel free to experiment will all of thier control inputs at a safe altitude.

In regards to your rear riser turns on opening, this is an excellent habit, and will help you to avoid canopy collisions after opening. However, it does little to help you establish you canopy's rear riser response in regards to low turns as your brakes are still stowed when you do this after opening, and your brakes would not be stowed when using this manuver as an obstacle avoidance tool just before landing.

Your 'what if' situation regarding a low opening, where you wouldn't have time to grab your toggles, any opening that low should have been made on your reserve, at which point the finer points of your main canopy's flight characteristics would be irrelevant.