Great article about separation

[wmw999 2,451]

From Bryan Burke at Skydive Arizona. Here

It's linked at the top of the screen, but I think a lot of the hard-core forum types don't tend to read the articles.

This one is absolutely great; personally I'd like to see everyone read it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[weaverd 0]

very good article and a must read!

[dthames 0]

I really hate to see so much emphasis put on jump numbers instead of the person being properly trained and having a proven performance record. Use tracking for example. If a jumper can demonstrated he/she can develop a proper plan and execute it, what difference does it make if he/she has X or 2X jumps? Or is it better to think that because he/she has 4X jumps that they automatically plan ahead?

I am not saying ignore experience. But experience outside the task at hand, is of much less value than a good plan. How many times has it been posted in the last year a statement like, “I have seen jumpers with thousands of jumps that can’t track”, or “….that have never really learned to track”?

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[shropshire 0]

Excellent article and ought to be required reading and should spark a good safety debate.


SideBar : Not looking for a 'techie' solutions BUT as most of us now carry GPS enabled phones .. .'maybe' a database of jump data (altitudes, H & V speeds, drift, wind speeds etc....) could be compiled to add weight ....... but I'm probably being daft (again)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[wmw999 2,451]

In his defense, you have to remember that he is the head of a destination drop zone, where lots of people whose training he can't personally vet show up. He's pretty much got to start with jump numbers -- and notice that he includes training as a requirement, even with the numbers, for leading the jumps.

But this discussion is part of why he's written the article.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[drdive 0]

I was interested in his argument why the angle flyers should not exit first. When we jump at Sebastian, the angle flying group always wants to exit first. Burke makes a convincing argument why they should not. (I think they just want to sit in the back of the otter)

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[dthames 0]

wmw999

In his defense, you have to remember that he is the head of a destination drop zone, where lots of people whose training he can't personally vet show up. He's pretty much got to start with jump numbers -- and notice that he includes training as a requirement, even with the numbers, for leading the jumps.

But this discussion is part of why he's written the article.

Wendy P.

I can see that Wendy, that some DZs have a very different population show up from week to week. You would not know who was able to perform at what level. So, where do you start?

Tracking (often solo) in my first year, I would always have a navigation plan that I didn't mind sharing with anyone that asked. If I was able to consistantly carry out a good plan, I would have really been at odds if someone said, "you can't do that because you don't have X number of jumps". At a new DZ, sure I can understand someone wanting to sit me down and have a talk so see how I thought and operated. I have GPS records of those jumps with overlays on the ground. It is very easy so see performance or lack of it. But if the bottom line is not performance/conformance but jump numbers, then are we making any real progress?

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[DSE 5]

dthames

Tracking (often solo) in my first year, I would always have a navigation plan that I didn't mind sharing with anyone that asked. If I was able to consistantly carry out a good plan, I would have really been at odds if someone said, "you can't do that because you don't have X number of jumps". At a new DZ, sure I can understand someone wanting to sit me down and have a talk so see how I thought and operated. I have GPS records of those jumps with overlays on the ground. It is very easy so see performance or lack of it. But if the bottom line is not performance/conformance but jump numbers, then are we making any real progress?

Absent actually jumping with someone from the DZ first (ie; coaching jump) how does the DZ know one can perform the skills they claim to possess? Jump numbers may not be the best litmus, but they do provide a starting point.

[skr 1]

> From Bryan Burke at Skydive Arizona.

I think these analyses and formulations
of situations that he does are real milestones
in the evolution of skydiving.

Skr

[nigel99 479]

wmw999

In his defense, you have to remember that he is the head of a destination drop zone, where lots of people whose training he can't personally vet show up. He's pretty much got to start with jump numbers -- and notice that he includes training as a requirement, even with the numbers, for leading the jumps.

But this discussion is part of why he's written the article.

Wendy P.

I remember chatting with a chief instructor, his least favourite category of jumper was visiting jumpers with over approximately 500 jumps. By and large they don't listen to dz briefings properly, they are an unknown often on higher wingloadings. To add to the problem they are experienced enough that it is hard to justify something like a qualification or check dive, to weed out the problem children.

I feel great sympathy for people like Bryan who have to make these calls and it is an excellent article by the way.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[dthames 0]

DSE

***

Tracking (often solo) in my first year, I would always have a navigation plan that I didn't mind sharing with anyone that asked. If I was able to consistantly carry out a good plan, I would have really been at odds if someone said, "you can't do that because you don't have X number of jumps". At a new DZ, sure I can understand someone wanting to sit me down and have a talk so see how I thought and operated. I have GPS records of those jumps with overlays on the ground. It is very easy so see performance or lack of it. But if the bottom line is not performance/conformance but jump numbers, then are we making any real progress?

Absent actually jumping with someone from the DZ first (ie; coaching jump) how does the DZ know one can perform the skills they claim to possess? Jump numbers may not be the best litmus, but they do provide a starting point.

I do not have a good answer. I do appreciated the difficulty of safety or the organizer having to make such calls without really knowing a person. A few months ago I was on a 2 way wingsuit flight with a visitor that was a TI at another DZ but had only been in a WS for a short time, like me. We had planned the flight path and knew where we wanted to go. He was to lead. We flew 90 degrees to jump run for maybe 15 seconds and then he turned right back toward the DZ on a line that would cross the jump run behind where we had exited. I mumbled some disgust and proceeded with the planned flight. 500 jumps or more, from my point of view does not mean anything at all when you see something like that right in front of your eyes. As I said, I don’t have a good answer. But I did email our primary organizer and told him what the guy had done so he might keep an eye out.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[billvon 2,995]

> If a jumper can demonstrated he/she can develop a proper plan and execute it, what
>difference does it make if he/she has X or 2X jumps?

It's about the only concrete way to judge experience. There are currently no concrete ways to judge training.

(As a good example of this, notice how many people think they are 'ahead of the curve' in both camera flying and canopy downsizing, and that they can do those things with fewer jumps than average. And look at how many are wrong.)

[dthames 0]

billvon

> If a jumper can demonstrated he/she can develop a proper plan and execute it, what
>difference does it make if he/she has X or 2X jumps?

It's about the only concrete way to judge experience. There are currently no concrete ways to judge training.

(As a good example of this, notice how many people think they are 'ahead of the curve' in both camera flying and canopy downsizing, and that they can do those things with fewer jumps than average. And look at how many are wrong.)

Bill,

Please read what I posted it near the top, Sep 17, 2013, 6:36 PM


I think you missed the point I was making. I am not talking about ahead of the curve people as much as I am talking about behind the curve people with lot of "experience". Experience somewhere else and no specific skill in the discipline. I have been on tracking and WS jumps led by jumpers with many years experience and maybe thousands of jumps. Their navigation skills are not good. Simple as that.

You says a person needs X number of jumps and we can assume they are good?

I say the person needs to be good. The person needs to be good or at least able to do a fair job. Pure and simple.

I was on a tracking dive where an AFF instructor lead the group that included 3 newly licensed jumpers about 30 degrees off of jump run, away from the DZ, until breakoff. I was on a WS jump with a tandem instructor that turned by down the jump run and I assume crossed it, as I refused to follow.

Are you telling me these guys are "experienced"? Yes they are! But give me someone good, please.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[nigel99 479]

Your argument about jump numbers is why I like the Aussie crest system. The principle of the system is good, but sadly as jumpers don't see the value ans logic behind it, too many people are signed off without the full skill set.

The crests are discipline specific, so even though I've got hundreds of jumps I'm not allowed to do more than a 2 way freefly. We just need people to understand the reasons why.

BTW, in line with the main article a newbie posted on facebook about a very near freefall and canopy collision this weekend, between him.and another low jump number person. As is almost always the case existing rules had been bent/violated leasing to the incident.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[ghost47 18]

Quote

You says a person needs X number of jumps and we can assume they are good?

I say the person needs to be good. The person needs to be good or at least able to do a fair job. Pure and simple.

I don't think anyone is saying we can assume that a person with X number of jumps is good. I think that most people are saying that, people with UNDER X number of jumps are most likely not skilled enough. Doesn't mean after they attain X number of jumps they are skilled.

So why use jump numbers as a proxy for skill? Because we don't have a better system. How would a DZ efficiently evaluate whether a person is good enough to lead a tracking dive or whatever? Additionally, even if a DZ could somehow determine that someone with fewer jump numbers than recommended was ready for a certain discipline or skill, that person would still lack the experience that only time in the air can provide (the increased chance that they have experienced something going wrong, and the hope that they have learned from those experiences).

[wmw999 2,451]

I understand that your contention is at least as much one of "what do we do about people who suck for their number of jumps" when it's a safety issue.

Every decent-sized DZ has a couple, in one way or another. Generally word-of-mouth takes care of them -- the guy who can't track can only get on 4-ways with equally-brick-like fallers; the one who hits formations hard all the time never gets to go anywhere but in the base, etc.

They, too, become anonymous when they travel. I've also noticed that the ones I know of don't generally travel much.

In RW bigways, word-of-mouth takes care of it pretty effectively. The guys who are ahead of the curve through nature, extreme effort and/or nurture tend to get invited early; others with many, many jumps never get a call, or never get one after the first one. It's probably the same in FF and wingsuit bigways as well. Dunno about tracking dives.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wicodefly 0]

dthames

I have GPS records of those jumps with overlays on the ground.

How do you that? I'm a newb and have drifted (maybe side sliding or something) off where I want to be (especially during tracking) and would love some some sort of way to examine what I am doing.

Thanks.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[base698 14]

I have used these two:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-the-trail/wrist-worn/foretrex-301/prod30025.html

http://www.suunto.com/Products/sports-watches/Suunto-Ambit2/Suunto-Ambit2-Black/

The Foretrex you can just turn on in the plane and forget about. It's also useful to know how far past the spot you are before you exit or get to the door.

I just got the Ambit2, so I can't speak as much about it. I made a display that has ground speed, glide ratio and altitude which seemed to work well on the 2 jumps I used it.