Double front risers for a newbie?

[Dagny 0]

I spoke with a friend of mine recently about skydiving. He has approximately 25 jumps and is currently working to complete the requirements for his A license. He moved through AFF without any difficulty and his landings have been on target since early on. To date, he has not done a crosswind or downwind landing and really isn't familiar with flat turns or other canopy inputs I consider important, but downsized his canopy not too long ago. I forget what his wl is, but I know it's 1.2:1 or less.

He gets advice from a very experienced skydiver who I trust...and yet, I have to wonder about the advice my friend recently received. Maybe I'm just more conservative, but after my friend complained about feeling bored under canopy, it was recommended that he try using double front risers on his approach. Is this okay? When is it time to start playing with the risers on final?

I have almost twice the number of jumps as my friend, although my landing progress has been slower. He downsized faster than me and now this riser thing....I asked about using risers and was told not to touch them, yet. Is he moving too fast, am I moving too slow, can I try out my risers, too?

Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali

[rigging65 0]

Everyone progresses differently in skydiving. It's like starting kindergarten all over again. Maybe this "very experienced skydiver who I (you) trust" has seen you both land and thinks your friend is ready to move forward, whereas you're not. That's natural, and it's no hit on you!

You can't take things like this personally. Some people learn faster than others in certain areas. I would ask your instructors what they think about your progress, and try not to worry about your friend's progress. It sounds like you friend is moving forward fast, that doesn't mean you're "behind" (if there is such a thing!).

I'm sure you're both having fun, and you'll both learn many skills...maybe at the same rate, maybe at a different rate. Just have fun and be safe...so you can keep having fun!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[FrogNog 1]

To me this sounds like a meat vs. vegetables issue. Practicing flat turns, learning to use rear risers as a backup, intentionally landing downwind or crosswind, etc. are "chores" from one standpoint. Things you don't do because you want to as much as because you have to in order to increase future survivability. Getting into front risers leads more to fun stuff.

There are exceptions to this, of course - the challenge of crosswind / downwind landings can be fun, and front risers can help you improve some imperfect scenarios up high, but chores vs. fun is how I see this.

Somewhere around 25 jumps it's understandable that a student could be downsizing, since most people don't stay on 290 square foot designed-to-be-docile canopies forever. What he's downsizing to and when he does it would be between him and his instructor(s), but I sure hope his instructors are making him well-rounded and paying attention to how he's handling it.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Dagny 0]

Oops, I didn't mean to make the post sound whiny or anything about my progress versus my friends...

Rather, I just wanted to know if other people agree that it's okay to start using double fronts at 25 jumps given strong previous canopy performance. I definitely enjoy watching him progress and I wouldn't want to stifle that, but I do want to know that he's being safe about it. As far as the advice he's received, well, advice varies, doesn't it? Some instructors are conservative, others not so much...

If everyone seems to agree that his progression is moving adequately, then I won't mention another word about this.

Now, as far as my own progression, I'd like to try using the risers on final. I haven't spoken to my instructors about using double fronts recently (meaning: since I've started landing on my feet). And, when I spoke to them about it in the past, I think they believed I was planning on doing hook turns using my risers and therefore discouraged me from touching them. So, if it's okay for my friend...then I'm thinking, surely it's okay for me too.

Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Hi, Missy. I had no idea you had 50 jump already, that's great! You are an addict! lol!

Some people pick up canopy skills more quickly than others. Your instructors have seen you land for the last 50 jumps since you've only been jumping at one dz, .. ask them what they think. You can also e-mail Scott Miller and ask him what he thinks about your progress and when you'll likely be ready to try double front risers. I just started playing with them and I have 80 jumps. I am only doing double fronts so far, it is a different view of the ground coming at you. You go a bit faster, etc. Don't worry, you'll get there.

Take care:)
Angela.

[fudd 0]

Double front riser aproach for landing is just to pick up speed. I started learning myself to land like this with just putting a little pressure on the front risers. Just a little increase in speed will make the flare a lot more powerful.

Physics say 2 times the speed will give the canopy 4 times the lift (I think that is almost correct).

I would say it might be a little early at 25 jumps. How do you get bored under canopy so soon?
However if he starts slow with just trying to put some pressure on I think he will be fine.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Squeak 17]

Hi Missy
I have 200 jumps and don't front riser on approach. I have front risered when I've been caught down wind on a bad spot but not on finals.
My lanind is are ok and I have landed down cross wind uphill and downhill. I load my canopy at 1.3 and have no problems at all with not risering yetAt 25 jumps I would not have dreamed of risering but I have sen a couple of people do it very early on.
These people are MUCH younger than me so are probablyv still in the testosterone over brains phase of their life. But that's cool, if they live long euough they'll probably be very good canopy pilots

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[andy2 0]

I started using double front risers on final approach with less than 10 jumps. You just have to be careful. Granted I was jumping at a .6:1 WL.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[ianmdrennan 2]

Dagny,

No matter what some people say here about when they used fronts or when you should use them, if your instructors are telling you to leave the fronts, then leave them for now.

You could ask them what you could do to advance your skills to get you to a level that you could do that though.

Blue skies and stay safe.
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

"it was recommended that he try using double front risers on his approach."

And we wonder why alot of jumpers are getting hurt or killed under landable canopies?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[kallend 2,027]

Some people have better visual acuity and better eye-hand coordination than others. Some have better air sense. Some have other life experiences that give them an edge (for example, maybe they are experienced glider pilots). It's not all about jump numbers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bch7773 0]

I get worried when I hear people with really really low jump numbers start using front risers on final because it "gives me more flare, so my landings are safer." (not implying anyone specific in this thread, but generally)
I mean, jumping a stiletto 120 would probably give them alot more speed, therefore increasing the flare power even more. Doesn't mean its smart to do it, IMHO.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[billvon 2,998]

>I mean, jumping a stiletto 120 would probably give them alot more
> speed, therefore increasing the flare power even more. Doesn't
> mean its smart to do it, IMHO.

Right - but under a 120, if they get scared and want to slow down, they don't have too many options. If they are in double fronts they can just drop the front risers.

Front riser approaches are something that you should start high (of course) and work down in altitude until you can do them for landing. The utility of teaching them is that they are ten times safer than a toggle hook turn, and a double front riser approach on a large canopy is the safest high performance approach there is. They get the increase in performance with very little increase in risk.

As I see more and more canopy accidents, I've come to think that the problem is not people trying difficult manuevers and failing because they're difficult, they are simply lacking the training that would allow them to perform them safely. If someone has an opportunity to learn high performance landings (even a simple one like a double front) from an expert I'd definitely recommend they do that. Once they learn the skill they will end up being safer skydivers as a result.

[Ron 10]

Nothing wrong with playing with double fronts....When you feel ready.

Now I think your buddy should spend more time on things that will save his life instead of trying to get faster landings right now.

So flat turns should be learned before you start trying increase your landing speed.

Saftey before speed.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rigging65 0]

Another good option, if you're feeling like you want another "opinion", is to go find a professional canopy coach and get their opinion. I think we all like to think that our Instructors know a lot about these sort of things, and in many cases (maybe even most) they do. But a professional specific to this discipline might have a bit more insight into this...on the other hand, no one knows you better than your Instructors...

Just something to think about: Not all Instructors fly their canopies aggressively. There are lots of Instructors out there who fly canopies loaded at 1:1, and never touch their front risers. Cool, that's their choice and they're happy! But, does that really qualify them to know "when can a newbie start using front risers"? Maybe, maybe not...

There are also differences depending on how big a DZ you're at. I think most people will agree that bigger DZs see more traffic (duh) and tend to see "more" aggressive canopy flight. This is certainly a generalization, but I hope you see my point. Progressive canopy flight for students was born at Chicago...a big DZ. It's a matter of $$. Schools set up where there are people who want training...generally at destination DZs.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Just because an Instructor is at a small DZ does not, in any way, mean they're "lessor". In fact, IMO, small DZ Instructors are often able to take a more personal interest in their students which may very well translate into better instruction. But, from my time in the sport/industry, technology seems to favor the bigger DZ. More jumpers = a larger equipment profile and more experience on that equipment. This also, IMO, tends to lean towards a more educated and focused study of canopy control.

OK, I've started rambling now, so I'll stop, but I hope this spurs some thought for some of you!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

* edited because possibly more suited to pm rather than an online slamming of a dz.

Dagny, I sent you a pm.

Angela.