downsizing - opinions wanted

[elfanie 0]

Ok...looking for opinions here.

My husband weighs 265 first thing in the morning unclothed...so lets put his exit weight at 290.

As an AFF student and after graduating AFF, he was jumping a Nav 260. (wingload 1.13-1...he can't really help it, he's a big guy). Landings were rough in the beginning...but he got to where the landings were consistantly soft (even if they weren't always on his feet).

He said EVENTUALLY he wanted to get down to a Sil 230. That was his goal. (remember that his exit weight is around 290)

This past weekend at the DZ, he made a comment to the DZO that he eventually wanted to get to the 230. The DZO said that he had a Nav 240 that my husband could try. At this point my husband had 15 jumps total (including his 7 AFF jumps). DZO is a VERY VERY VERY VERY experienced jumper - 9000+ jumps...we both trust him a lot. (if there is anyone who walks around preaching "safety!"...that would be him.)
My husband reminded the DZO that he was wingloaded so heavily on the 260 already and said that he wasn't sure he was ready to downsize. DZO had him jump the 260 and said he'd watch him. Watched him do the 260...and said he was ready for the 240 and wouldn't even notice a difference.

My husband jumped the 240 for his 16th jump (wingloaded 1.23-1) and the DZO was right in that my husband didn't notice a difference flying or landing.

I, however....got very upset with him. We had discussed downsizing and I was against him downsizing anytime soon...as in, certainly not before 50 jumps, and ABSOLUTELY not at 16!
His argument was that DZO wouldn't allow him to do something dangerous. (we know that he's not allowed people to jump at his DZ when he felt they weren't being safe or jumping too small for their experience) His argument was that he trusts the DZO...DZO said he was ready, so he jumped it.

MY argument was that it doesn't matter who thinks he was ready...HE had said that he didn't think he was ready, and HE is the one flying the canopy. There was no down side to remaining on the 260...there could have been a down side to downsizing then. That no matter who says you should advance - even if it's the most experienced jumper who ever walked the planet - you shouldn't do it until you feel you're safe in doing so.

His argument was that after the DZO said he would be ok to do it....he then felt safe.

(note: he's jumped the 240 now 4 times...no problem any time, and he says he notices no difference. I am 135 or so in the morning, and am flying a Sil 210, wingloaded 0.79-1 and I have no desire to downgrade anytime soon. I have 27 jumps.)

Am I just paranoid and overly cautious? Even the idea of me going to a sil 190 makes my stomach flutter...and that would only put me at a 0.87-1. Am I just too cautious? Should I just trust the DZO's judgement explicitely since I don't know what the heck I'm talking about being so new (not claiming others said I don't know what I'm talking about...I KNOW that I don't know what I'm talking about)...

or is my husband wanting to do too much too quickly? it made me feel distrustful of his (husband's) decisions and safety...and I didn't like that feeling AT ALL.

Paranoid?

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[gus 1]

If your husband literally doesn't notice any difference then why downsize?

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[elfanie 0]

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If your husband literally doesn't notice any difference then why downsize?

Gus

Because he HATES the student rigs....they don't fit him well, and he has to share the 260 with another guy that jumps at that DZ when the other guy is out there.
So he wants to buy a rig that fits...and eventually wants to put a 230 in it.

So my understanding is that it's part wanting to get out of the rig because of the way that it fit him...and part impatience at having to share the one 260 that they have out there.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[pilotdave 0]

I dunno why so many people are in a rush to downsize. I downsized from a PD230 student canopy to a PD150 when I had about 40 jumps. Big drop, but it's the same type of canopy and I only loaded it at around .85. It was a lot faster than I was used to, but still very forgiving and easy to fly. I didn't plan to downsize again for a long time. I know a lot of people that have their entire canopy progression laid out right from the start though. I ended up downsizing after I demoed a sabre2 on my 100th jump. I realized that ZP canopies are a hell of a lot easier to land, even though they fly faster.

I went down to a 135, loaded around 1.0...maybe a little more since I think i've gained some weight. I've had a bunch of people tell me I should have gotten a 120. I'm pretty sure I could handle a 120, but I don't see a reason to try. My current reserve is a 120 and I'm not totally comfortable with that. I already bought a 143 for my new container when it comes. So I'll probably downsize someday. Maybe years down the road I'll be jumping a sub 100. But I'm not gonna schedule what canopies I'll buy with what jump number.

Dave

[jerry81 10]

Sometimes, having someone experienced tell you you can do something can work great for your self-confidence. The first time I jumped an elliptical at over 1.0 wl, I would have felt a lot more nervous if my former instructor hadn't said he felt I could handle it.
If your husband is just a little unsure of his abilities and the DZO's opinion makes him feel better about them, he would probably be fine on a 230, as long as he keeps in mind that he's above usual student wingloading and should be extra careful- something he needs to remember on a 240 as well, anyway.
Of course, I'm just speaking from my own limited experience.

---

[billvon 2,998]

The 260 sounds like a good canopy to start under. I recommend not downsizing until you can do the following under a canopy:

-flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turn at least 45 degrees
-land crosswind and in no wind
-land reliably within a 10 meter circle
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
-land on slight uphills and downhills
-land with rear risers

The reason this list is extensive is that these are skills you really need to learn on a larger canopy. Some, like flat turns, can turn a fatal incident (low turn to avoid a fence) into a minor incident. Some, like the front riser landings, just teach you more about how your canopy flies and how fast it recovers.

The problem with putting this list off is that most people downsize until their canopy scares them just a little. On such a small canopy a jumper might be afraid to try a rear riser landing - and he might put off learning that skill for that reason. Then, one day when he realizes he has a broken brake line, that's a skill he will not be able to use to help land his canopy.

Also, by following such a list, the exceptional canopy pilots are not held back unduly; they advance as fast as they are safely able.

[skybytch 273]

What were the wind conditions while he was jumping that 240 - ie did he land it fine in no wind or was there a bit of wind to slow him down?

Some questions to ask him - Does he know how to flat turn and does he practice it up high on every skydive? What would he do if someone cut him off on final? Does he think he could put that 240 into an average sized backyard? There may not be residential areas near the dz you are jumping at now, but if you plan to travel to other dz's there may be - one bad spot is all it will take. Can he land that 240 crosswind in a 5 mph breeze? How current is he now and how current does he plan to stay? 5 or 6 jumps a month isn't quite current enough for a 1.2 wingloading imho; 10+ would be better.

He is likely capable of landing that 240 safely 95% of the time. It's that other 5% he should be thinking about - the times when shit happens and survival depends on being able to fly that canopy very well. If he thinks shit won't happen to him... well, that's a roll of the dice, hope his medical insurance is paid up when/if it does happen.

My ex had 250 jumps when he downsized from a 170 at 1.0 to a 135 at 1.25. He put 100+ uneventful jumps on that canopy - and then shit happened to him. One bad decision had him landing in a not-so-good area; result was breaking both tib and fib in his left leg. He's made 3 jumps since... and won't be doing any more.

[elfanie 0]

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What were the wind conditions while he was jumping that 240 - ie did he land it fine in no wind or was there a bit of wind to slow him down?

It was basically a no-wind day...and he did fine.

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Some questions to ask him - Does he know how to flat turn and does he practice it up high on every skydive? What would he do if someone cut him off on final?

Good questions...
not just for him, but for myself as well. I don't practice flat turns, and probably should.

what would he do if someone cut him off? Not sure...I will ask him. (or maybe HE will respond to these questions, since he is reading this)
In fact, this thread is already useful to me...because looking at the list above and at your questions is making me realize what I need practice on.

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Does he think he could put that 240 into an average sized backyard? There may not be residential areas near the dz you are jumping at now, but if you plan to travel to other dz's there may be - one bad spot is all it will take.

Eep. I'm not sure that I could do this...on any of the canopies that I've jumped. At least, not the 'average sized back yard' that we have here (which often constitutes a rectangular area probably 30 feet wide by 60 feet long..heh.) I've gotten where I'm much better at spotting my landing..but not THAT good!

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Can he land that 240 crosswind in a 5 mph breeze? How current is he now and how current does he plan to stay? 5 or 6 jumps a month isn't quite current enough for a 1.2 wingloading imho; 10+ would be better.

He can land in a crosswind..yeah. That I know he can do.
And we jump basically every weekend...I did 7 this past weekend and he did 5. We've only skipped one weekend the last couple of months, and that was because of family in town. knowing him..he will stay very very current and keep jumping lots.

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He is likely capable of landing that 240 safely 95% of the time. It's that other 5% he should be thinking about - the times when shit happens and survival depends on being able to fly that canopy very well. If he thinks shit won't happen to him... well, that's a roll of the dice, hope his medical insurance is paid up when/if it does happen.

Aww...come on, don't say stuff like that to an already paranoid wife.

Obviously there's a lot that we BOTH have to practice and learn.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[nightjumps 1]

Just as important as what billvon says is... he's gonna need a really large reserve...r-max 288 or PDR 281.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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-flare turn at least 45 degrees

-could you explain that one please, Bill?

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-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing

-I jump the student rigs still, medium rig has a Pisa 290 in it...currently my DZ only has 1 small rig with a 230 in it which I prefer, but I'm kinda low on the totem pole to get to jump it...on the last note you mentioned, about initiating a high performance landing with front risers...I can't get anything out of front risers - there's just no way at all. Took a waiver on that on my A license card because there is just no way on God's green earth that I could even get an inch worth of pull on even one front riser yanking as hard as I could on that 290. Any ideas on something I could substitute to try to practice that skill? I'd like to get down to a 7-cell 190 in about 50 more jumps. Wingload on that would be less than 1:1, couldn't give you specifics because honestly I'm not sure what I will weigh in the next few months (trying hard to get smaller ).

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[billvon 2,998]

>>flare turn at least 45 degrees

>-could you explain that one please, Bill?

A flare turn is a turn in which you start the flare, turn in one direction or the other, then re-level the wing and finish the flare. No doubt you've seen people start flaring, stick one hand out to "break their fall" and immediately turn in the direction they stuck their hand (with toggle in it of course.) A flare turn is the same thing, it just finishes off by leveling out the canopy.

>Any ideas on something I could substitute to try to practice that skill?

Front riser approaches can be hard to practice on some sorts of canopies. Not all risers have dive loops for example, and some canopies have more front riser pressure than other ones. It becomes more of an issue as you approach a 1:1 loading.

[freeflygoddess 0]

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-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing

I do have to say that I was unable to pull on my front risers at all until I was on my 135, and I barely have the upper body strength for it, So I am still unable to do these kind of manuvers (I have been trying at a really high altitude, like 2500ft) so since I am still unable to do these up high I really don't want to do these on landing, but does that mean I can't downsize? (btw I don't want to right now but I am sure that after 500 jumps on my canopy, which right now I have 55+ on a used Sabre 135, I will want to at least get a new canopy)

Also I must say that I had to use my rear risers for a landing a couple of weekends ago, not a super great stand up landing, but I landed soft enough to walk away with just a grass stain on my ff pants...I will be practicing these more....

[sducoach 0]

Bill,

You and Nightjumps are right on the money however, at 16 jumps very very few students could accomplish your list.

Just say no................

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[phoenixlpr 0]

I agree with you. Ive not even crossed 1:1 the first 100 jumps. I have a message for him: broken wings heal long.

Just check the limits of PD:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/navigator.htm

I share your worries, thats almost a suicide attepmt.

[gemini 0]

I agree with Bill, PhoenixLpr and SDUCoach.

Someone with 16 jumps needs to be learning everything the current canopy can do and become proficient in their canopy skills period. Downsizing should not even be considered at this level and should be discouraged by the DZO.

I have seen many novice jumpers rapidly downsize even with everyone around them telling them they are not ready. I really don't want to go to anymore jumper funerals or be told by EMS to pull and keep pressure on the jumpers leg.

I will not sell a canopy to a jumper who is not ready for it. He may go out and buy it from someone else, but at least I tried.

And don't forget that even if you have the canopy skills, you need a good measure of common sense to figure out early that you may be in trouble and need to land off instead of running back to the dz.

In answer to the question that started this thread, the jumper probably just needs to buy his own gear so he doesn't have to share with other jumpers. Downsizing at 16 jumps should not even be a consideration, but could be planned for. For example get a container that will hold the 260 or 240, but will also hold a 230 or 210. Then when he is ready to downsize, it is just a canopy switch.

Blue skies,

Jim

[phoenixlpr 0]

He should strt downsizing with himself first. Ive started too. Ive reached 79Kgs from 92, my tartget is somewhere between 68-74Kgs. Its hard takes time and efforts but not impossible.

[elfanie 0]

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He should strt downsizing with himself first. Ive started too. Ive reached 79Kgs from 92, my tartget is somewhere between 68-74Kgs. Its hard takes time and efforts but not impossible.

1) I think he looks pretty darn good.

2) He's lost about 65 pounds recently already.

He's a 'big guy'...big muscles, big frame....not particularly all that fat.
But more important is that he's healthy. I don't care HOW much he weighs, as long as he's healthy..and he is.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[phoenixlpr 0]

OK.

You can find enough WL recommendation around these forums. Or you can check any manufacturers page. I think he should be in student category with 16 jumps.