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kallend 2,027
QuoteWindsor,
I know your skill level and respect you very much. But where does USPA draw the line in order to "grandfather" jumpers to getting a coach rating?
I remember when AFF first came out, people were skeptic about the rating at first. Then once every one accepted it, they said that S/L would go by the waste side and put smaller DZs out of business. That hasn't happened. The reason I bring this issue up, is that the Coach Rating is a stepping stone, and with all programs, there is always something that someone doesn't like or think that it needs to be done different. You have a lot to offer skydivers, and it's a waste that you don't just buckle up and get your rating. Yes, it was very easy for me to get my rating what with the experience I had behind me. But I sat in through the class work and listened, and learned. Why not offer to help teach? I know it can't be the money issue with you, afterall; someone as good looking and smart as you, has a very good paying job.
You are viewing this from the perspective of the individual wanting to be a coach --> instructor.
I'm asking the question from the perspective of a student.
Is the requirement that only coaches may jump with someone with 23 jumps (when just 3 years ago folks with 5,000 jumps but no rating would do it for free) good for the student?
If so, how do we know that?
What follow-up has USPA planned to see that the new rules are actually turning out better skydivers?
What sense does it make that someone with 5,000 jumps and no rating is barred from doing a 2-way with a 24 jump guy, but 4 26-jump guys can get together and do a 4-way? Can anyone explain how this is good for the newbies without giving all the crap about stepping stones and how good it is for the coaches.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
hookitt 1
No rating, no jumps with students. You're welcome to jump with the people when they are off student status.
None. And some one with 5000 jumps is NOT barred from it.
QuoteWhat sense does it make that someone with 5,000 jumps and no rating is barred from doing a 2-way with a 24 jump guy,
None. And some one with 5000 jumps is NOT barred from it.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto
No one is saying that having low jump-number coaches is better than having experienced people. What they (we, me, who cares) are saying is that if you ARE that experienced jumper and you intend to work with novices, then you need to suck it up and get the damn rating. How tough is it? It isn't if you already possess the requisite skillset. Bitching about spending $100 dollars for the course, especially as a grown-up with a real job, is just silly in my opinion.
There are a lot of things that we all might be good at that we aren't supposed to be doing. I could fly a C-182 when I was six and flew jumpers at age 12, but that does not mean that I should be doing it. The fact that I have been flying planes most of my life and can fly circles around most fresh-out-of-flight-school newbies jump pilots does not mean that the FAA ought to just hand me a CFI on merit. Hell, I never even bothered to get a private ticket! *gasp!* That fact, of course, takes nothing away from my ability to perform the function; it just means that I am WRONG for doing so. I don't bitch about not being able to fly jumpers, or even fly at all legally, because I understand that it's pointless. Throw stones at my comparison if you like, but the bottom line here is that getting the rating is simply "the right thing to do" if you want to legally perform that function today.
Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM/BM-I, S&TA, PRO (and lifetime un-certificated pilot)
There are a lot of things that we all might be good at that we aren't supposed to be doing. I could fly a C-182 when I was six and flew jumpers at age 12, but that does not mean that I should be doing it. The fact that I have been flying planes most of my life and can fly circles around most fresh-out-of-flight-school newbies jump pilots does not mean that the FAA ought to just hand me a CFI on merit. Hell, I never even bothered to get a private ticket! *gasp!* That fact, of course, takes nothing away from my ability to perform the function; it just means that I am WRONG for doing so. I don't bitch about not being able to fly jumpers, or even fly at all legally, because I understand that it's pointless. Throw stones at my comparison if you like, but the bottom line here is that getting the rating is simply "the right thing to do" if you want to legally perform that function today.
Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM/BM-I, S&TA, PRO (and lifetime un-certificated pilot)
QuoteWhat sense does it make that someone with 5,000 jumps and no rating is barred from doing a 2-way with a 24 jump guy, but 4 26-jump guys can get together and do a 4-way? Can anyone explain how this is good for the newbies
Here ya go.
How many very good 1000+ jump jumpers have the same mentality that folks like ourselves have, about mentoring beginning/low time jumpers? Yes they're out there, but they're not the majority. (I'm not implying that I'm A) a 1000+ jump jumper or B) I'm as good as those jumpers, just that I was brought up skydiving by a "sea daddy" who took me under his care and taught me everything he could).
The ISP, using coaches, gives structure to this, giving student jumpers a person to go to that is more then willing and excited to work with them. To teach and to help the student finish getting everything signed off on their A-license proficiency card.
Has it made a difference?
Well, obviously I've only been in the sport for about 3 1/2 years, but I've noticed that the students coming off of the ISP with coaches with their A-licenses are MUCH better jumpers (skill in the air) then the students were previous to the adventation of the Coach Rating.
Are they learning as much as a student that jumps with a 5,000 jump jumper who's competed in RW? Possibly not, probably not, BUT the system with Coaches makes sure that students don't slip through the cracks. It makes sure that EVERY student recieves training and jumps with someone who can teach them the skills they need as an A-licensed jumper.
Dust off your SIM and look at the ISP program, actually look indepth at it and look at the A-license pro-card. Look at all the items that Coaches help a student learn in the air and on the ground.
My example, the students at SD Aggieland overall are coming away with their A-license (20 and now 25 jumps) being better fliers then I was at 60 jumps.
Why?
Well, not only are they getting jumps and time with someone who is motivated to teach the student those skills, the coach has had training on teaching techniques.
Pull out an IRM and read the course the Coaches go through during their rating class. Read about the different teaching styles they are taught and have at their disposal.
I leave you with this. Kallend, do you have a Coach Rating or have you sat through a Coaches Course? Not the BIC, but the new course.
I have a feeling that you don't have a full understanding of what the program really is and have only witnessed it being used (possibly incorrectly or not to its full potential).
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
lister55 0
As a camera flier I'm supposed to have a rating, so I got the Coach
Quote
where does it say that you are supposed to have a rating since you are a camera flier...would that not exclude almost every free flier with a camera from jumping?
hookitt 1
He's talking about video taping tandem skydives.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto
lister55 0
Ok I also video tandems but am unaware of any needed rating for this.
John, I wasn't trying to answer your question. Don't pick on me![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey
Technically you don't need a rating to film tandems.
Its really up to the TM, although there are actual "requirements" for it. Something like 500 jumps, atleast 200 camera jumps, something like that (I'd have to look it up).
In the end, though, no matter how qualified you are, its really up to the TM.
If I don't feel a camera flier is safe or has good judgement, he/she is NOT jumping with me on a tandem. Especially since if he/she screws up it could kill all 3 of us, that is unacceptable to me. But then again, I'm a pretty new TM with 174 tandems under my belt.
Its really up to the TM, although there are actual "requirements" for it. Something like 500 jumps, atleast 200 camera jumps, something like that (I'd have to look it up).
In the end, though, no matter how qualified you are, its really up to the TM.
If I don't feel a camera flier is safe or has good judgement, he/she is NOT jumping with me on a tandem. Especially since if he/she screws up it could kill all 3 of us, that is unacceptable to me. But then again, I'm a pretty new TM with 174 tandems under my belt.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
hookitt 1
There was a requirement to be an AFF jumpmaster to fly with Tandems a while back. I don't know a single DZ that complied with that.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto
kallend 2,027
QuoteNo rating, no jumps with students. You're welcome to jump with the people when they are off student status.
QuoteWhat sense does it make that someone with 5,000 jumps and no rating is barred from doing a 2-way with a 24 jump guy,
reply]
I'm not disputing what the rule is. I'm asking IS THIS A GOOD RULE, and if so, how do you know?...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 2,027
QuoteJohn, I wasn't trying to answer your question. Don't pick on me
You're no fun anymore!
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
crwmike 0
Quote
I don't believe people like Windsor were ever legally able to mentor someone who didn't yet have an 'a' license. I don't think anything has changed here.
We could legally do it then and legally do it now. Now, however(at USPA DZ's), we violate the safety rules of OUR organization if we don't obtain a Coach business license.
Michael
kallend 2,027
QuoteNo one is saying that having low jump-number coaches is better than having experienced people. What they (we, me, who cares) are saying is that if you ARE that experienced jumper and you intend to work with novices, then you need to suck it up and get the damn rating. How tough is it? It isn't if you already possess the requisite skillset. Bitching about spending $100 dollars for the course, especially as a grown-up with a real job, is just silly in my opinion.
So your position is that there is no actual benefit to the student. It is,as crwmike put it, a business license for which one pays $100 or so (I think it was closer to $300 at the course run locally) for the privilege of "giving back".
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jsaxton 0
Dude, let me get this straight. You are involved in quite possibly the most expensive sport in the world and you are complaining about the price of a book that costs less than 2 jump tickets?
Aviatrr 0
QuoteDude, let me get this straight. You are involved in quite possibly the most expensive sport in the world and you are complaining about the price of a book that costs less than 2 jump tickets?
If you call my comment complaining, then yes. I have thought about the Coach rating, and I may get it at some point....but for now, I'm not going out of my way and spending a few hundred bucks total to get it. Notice they don't offer the IRM for download? It's probably the only REQUIRED manual.
I guess for now I'll just continue to jump with those that don't require a coach...and I'll continue to pay my own slot. Hell, if I get the coach rating, I'll still pay my own slot. I'm not worried about the money....it's just the fact that USPA seems to be trying to get money out of us every way they can, then they talk about things like cancelling our insurance.
Mike
I know your skill level and respect you very much. But where does USPA draw the line in order to "grandfather" jumpers to getting a coach rating?
I remember when AFF first came out, people were skeptic about the rating at first. Then once every one accepted it, they said that S/L would go by the waste side and put smaller DZs out of business. That hasn't happened. The reason I bring this issue up, is that the Coach Rating is a stepping stone, and with all programs, there is always something that someone doesn't like or think that it needs to be done different. You have a lot to offer skydivers, and it's a waste that you don't just buckle up and get your rating. Yes, it was very easy for me to get my rating what with the experience I had behind me. But I sat in through the class work and listened, and learned. Why not offer to help teach? I know it can't be the money issue with you, afterall; someone as good looking and smart as you, has a very good paying job.
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