kallend 2,027
kallend 2,027
QuoteSkydiving has higher recurring expenses, esp. if you like to do 500 jumps a year
I think maintaining a stable of polo ponies will cost more than 500 jumps a year.
Ocean racing is also way more expensive.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jsaxton 0
OK, you win.
QuoteSo we see that there is a set of experienced skydivers who have been excluded only in the last couple of years from jumping with pre-"A" skydivers.
Yeah, and if you go back far enough, students couldn't have square reserve, had to have spring-loaded PCs with ripcords, AFF was unheard of and unproven, S/L was the only progression and the thought of Tandems was a crazy idea by some guy with a beard.
Times change, training changes, this is one that actually improves our sport (IF a DZ will implement it correctly). However, just because jumpers are unwilling to go through the course to get a rating they should have no trouble getting, that doesn't mean that it is a bad system.
Basically, through this entire thread the only "real" reason you've been able to give against the coach rating basically is citing laziness and an unwillingness to change. Where as jumpers such as myself are trying to show you the positives, to help get jumpers like yourself to go get the rating, to help improve our students and our sport.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
Shark 0
Kinda makes you wonder why DanBC is gettting his AFF-I recurrent. With his skills, he definitely doesn't need a rating, but has it. Then again, may be the DZ will not allow him to jump with novices.
Or maybe he understands he is a well respected jumper and he is setting the proper example and following the BSRs.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
kallend 2,027
QuoteQuoteSo we see that there is a set of experienced skydivers who have been excluded only in the last couple of years from jumping with pre-"A" skydivers.
Yeah, and if you go back far enough, students couldn't have square reserve, had to have spring-loaded PCs with ripcords, AFF was unheard of and unproven, S/L was the only progression and the thought of Tandems was a crazy idea by some guy with a beard.
Times change, training changes, this is one that actually improves our sport (IF a DZ will implement it correctly). However, just because jumpers are unwilling to go through the course to get a rating they should have no trouble getting, that doesn't mean that it is a bad system.
Basically, through this entire thread the only "real" reason you've been able to give against the coach rating basically is citing laziness and an unwillingness to change. Where as jumpers such as myself are trying to show you the positives, to help get jumpers like yourself to go get the rating, to help improve our students and our sport.
You CLAIM an improvement but offer no proof. USPA offered no proof prior to the change. No-one has any proof that mentoring of novices is better now than it was three years ago.
I do not wish to buy a business license so I can jump with novices.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Just because I only gave you examples I have personally seen, doesn't mean there isn't proof. So I don't have real numbers, only personal experiences, well, that's all you have on your side as well, thus it is a no-win arguement.
At this point I would say to e-mail the USPA and chat with them about the BSR changes. Or continue to bicker about the changes and jump at a DZ that doesn't follow that portion of the BSRs or one that isn't a GM DZ so you can jump with student jumpers without a rating.
At this point I would say to e-mail the USPA and chat with them about the BSR changes. Or continue to bicker about the changes and jump at a DZ that doesn't follow that portion of the BSRs or one that isn't a GM DZ so you can jump with student jumpers without a rating.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
crwmike 0
Absent hard numbers, I look at a couple of things. First, look at the people involved. On one side of the argument we have people who are entenched in the commerce of skydiving. I see lots of tandem ride operators who think the coach ticket as a good thing for skydiving. Questioning the 'rating' I see a bunch of skydivers who skydive for the beauty and joy of it. People who freely give of their time and expertise to novices.
Now look at intent. Coming out of OUR USPA is a consisent line of decisions, rules and restrictions with financial gain being the common thread.
When trying to track the truth here ...follow the money!.
Can one make their living selling tandem rides and still keep the beauty of skydiving in their heart ...possible but not bloody likely. Can someone with a coach rating do this? For now, yeah, I think quite a few do and OUR USPA leaves these people no choice but to get the 'rating'. The rating is new enough that it hasn't been hardened in the money machine ...yet. That time is coming, however. Just give you guys a little time to work the angles for maximum profit.
What individual skydivers choose to do will always vary and I would at least like to believe there are tandem freight haulers out there who have retained the beauty and honor of skydiving. The system is a money making machine with everything else having lesser value. I really don't see how you can look at where skydiving has gone in the past decade and deny that.
Michael
Now look at intent. Coming out of OUR USPA is a consisent line of decisions, rules and restrictions with financial gain being the common thread.
When trying to track the truth here ...follow the money!.
Can one make their living selling tandem rides and still keep the beauty of skydiving in their heart ...possible but not bloody likely. Can someone with a coach rating do this? For now, yeah, I think quite a few do and OUR USPA leaves these people no choice but to get the 'rating'. The rating is new enough that it hasn't been hardened in the money machine ...yet. That time is coming, however. Just give you guys a little time to work the angles for maximum profit.
What individual skydivers choose to do will always vary and I would at least like to believe there are tandem freight haulers out there who have retained the beauty and honor of skydiving. The system is a money making machine with everything else having lesser value. I really don't see how you can look at where skydiving has gone in the past decade and deny that.
Michael
QuoteJust because I only gave you examples I have personally seen, doesn't mean there isn't proof. So I don't have real numbers, only personal experiences, well, that's all you have on your side as well, thus it is a no-win arguement.
At this point I would say to e-mail the USPA and chat with them about the BSR changes. Or continue to bicker about the changes and jump at a DZ that doesn't follow that portion of the BSRs or one that isn't a GM DZ so you can jump with student jumpers without a rating.
I do not wish to buy a business license so I can jump with novices.
Having a rating also costs an additional $20 every time you renew. That pisses me off. They force me to be their sales agent and then charge me for it.
never pull low......unless you are
Well, my DZ is far from a "tandem factory" that's all about getting money from students, but we've implemented the Coach program in the ISP with huge success. Our students are coming out of the student program out-flying some 100+ jump jumpers from other DZs. So, like I said, I've seen it work.
The coaches at my DZ, do it because they love to work with students. The coach only gets $5 for the jump with the student, that usually goes right out of their hand for a packjob, so its not like the student is paying some sort of HUGE fee.
If you want to DZ bash, then talk about the DZs on the west coast charging $200+ for a tandem jump!
(Basically, I found it incredibly offensive that you were implying that Skydive Aggieland is a "tandem factory/Tandem Ride Operator" and that we are more concerned about ripping off our students then training good skydivers. Also, I found it extremely offensive that you were trying to imply that I have lost what skydiving is about since I'm a very active TM. That's why I became a TM, so I could introduce people to what I love, skydiving, not for the money, which isn't that good.)
The coaches at my DZ, do it because they love to work with students. The coach only gets $5 for the jump with the student, that usually goes right out of their hand for a packjob, so its not like the student is paying some sort of HUGE fee.
If you want to DZ bash, then talk about the DZs on the west coast charging $200+ for a tandem jump!
(Basically, I found it incredibly offensive that you were implying that Skydive Aggieland is a "tandem factory/Tandem Ride Operator" and that we are more concerned about ripping off our students then training good skydivers. Also, I found it extremely offensive that you were trying to imply that I have lost what skydiving is about since I'm a very active TM. That's why I became a TM, so I could introduce people to what I love, skydiving, not for the money, which isn't that good.)
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
The SIM does state that the S&TA can waive the coach requirements for any person holding a D-license at the dropzone. So if jumpers such as yourself, winsor and others want to jump with novices without getting your coach rating you can. You just need to get approval from your S&TA.
kallend 2,027
QuoteWell, my DZ is far from a "tandem factory" that's all about getting money from students, but we've implemented the Coach program in the ISP with huge success. Our students are coming out of the student program out-flying some 100+ jump jumpers from other DZs. So, like I said, I've seen it work.
The coaches at my DZ, do it because they love to work with students. The coach only gets $5 for the jump with the student, that usually goes right out of their hand for a packjob, so its not like the student is paying some sort of HUGE fee.
If you want to DZ bash, then talk about the DZs on the west coast charging $200+ for a tandem jump!
(Basically, I found it incredibly offensive that you were implying that Skydive Aggieland is a "tandem factory/Tandem Ride Operator" and that we are more concerned about ripping off our students then training good skydivers. Also, I found it extremely offensive that you were trying to imply that I have lost what skydiving is about since I'm a very active TM. That's why I became a TM, so I could introduce people to what I love, skydiving, not for the money, which isn't that good.)
Well, I don't dispute that the ISP is demonstrably and measurably better than what came before. But that's a separate issue.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 2,027
QuoteThe SIM does state that the S&TA can waive the coach requirements for any person holding a D-license at the dropzone. So if jumpers such as yourself, winsor and others want to jump with novices without getting your coach rating you can. You just need to get approval from your S&TA.
There's been a lot of discussion, particularly in the WL threads, of how S&TAs are reluctant to give any waivers on account of liability concerns.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Designer 0
Humm,alot of teaching in this sport requires the basic knowledge of the subject.I have yet to see the reason I need to spend money to become a coach.We help when we are asked,needed and just like to see other people move along in this sport!
Hooknswoop 19
Quotehow S&TAs are reluctant to give any waivers on account of liability concerns.
If an S & TA is unwilling to waiver anything, even if a waiver is appropriate, then they should be removed as S &TA and new new S &TA appointed. If they are not able or willing to do the job, then don't do it.
Derek
crwmike 0
To be honest, I see you as introducing them to a great carnival ride rather than teaching and sharing with them the depth and beauty of skydiving, but that's another issue.
I don't know you and have never been to your home DZ. Thus, I have no call there. My point, in general, is that I see many who are involved in the commerce of skydiving lining up on 'coach program is better than sliced bread' side of the issue. Your novices are paying more than double the price of their jump in order to jump with someone (wait a bit, and watch the price increase as the angles are figured). The restriction on safe, experienced skydivers jumping with novices is first and foremost a protection of a franchise. Again, I really don't see how you can deny that.
I do respect your faith in your home DZ, but only in the sense and to the extent that I respect your theory that your wife is beautiful and your children smart.
(apologies to Mr. Menken)
Michael
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
--Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
I don't know you and have never been to your home DZ. Thus, I have no call there. My point, in general, is that I see many who are involved in the commerce of skydiving lining up on 'coach program is better than sliced bread' side of the issue. Your novices are paying more than double the price of their jump in order to jump with someone (wait a bit, and watch the price increase as the angles are figured). The restriction on safe, experienced skydivers jumping with novices is first and foremost a protection of a franchise. Again, I really don't see how you can deny that.
I do respect your faith in your home DZ, but only in the sense and to the extent that I respect your theory that your wife is beautiful and your children smart.
(apologies to Mr. Menken)
Michael
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
--Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
QuoteWell, my DZ is far from a "tandem factory" that's all about getting money from students, but we've implemented the Coach program in the ISP with huge success. Our students are coming out of the student program out-flying some 100+ jump jumpers from other DZs. So, like I said, I've seen it work.
The coaches at my DZ, do it because they love to work with students. The coach only gets $5 for the jump with the student, that usually goes right out of their hand for a packjob, so its not like the student is paying some sort of HUGE fee.
If you want to DZ bash, then talk about the DZs on the west coast charging $200+ for a tandem jump!
(Basically, I found it incredibly offensive that you were implying that Skydive Aggieland is a "tandem factory/Tandem Ride Operator" and that we are more concerned about ripping off our students then training good skydivers. Also, I found it extremely offensive that you were trying to imply that I have lost what skydiving is about since I'm a very active TM. That's why I became a TM, so I could introduce people to what I love, skydiving, not for the money, which isn't that good.)
QuoteI see you as introducing them to a great carnival ride rather than teaching and sharing with them the depth and beauty of skydiving
With the ISP, I take folks up on training tandems, they do Cat A and Cat B dives: handle touches, altitude awareness, body position/body awareness, they pull at the right altitude then get hands on training in reference to canopy flight (identifying a "good" canopy, finding the airport, how to fly: stalls, turns, flaring, how to fly a proper landing pattern and how to land accurately). So tandems ARE a great training/teaching tool and do share the depth and beauty of skydiving. As much as an AFF dive would.
Twice as much?
Lets see (I'll use SD Aggieland):
Gear rental: $25
Lift Ticket: $18
Packjob: $5
Total: $48
Now a jump with a Coach is $65.
So they're paying $17 more for training, ground and air. What all does that involve?
Well, if I'm taking a Cat G student up, I help them determin the spot, check their gear, teach them the proper exit, how to accomplish the body flight they need, help them plan their landing pattern and apply all of this, then take between 10-30 minutes debriefing everything about their jump. Including their exit, freefall, tracking, deployment, canopy flight and landing.
So that $17 pays for my slot and gives me $5 (which goes to a packer anyways
).
That is hardly a money maker for a DZ, they're actually loosing money by providing exceptional training for their student jumpers.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
fraschc 0
Quote
I do not wish to buy a business license so I can jump with novices.
Having a rating also costs an additional $20 every time you renew. That pisses me off. They force me to be their sales agent and then charge me for it.
Sorry if this is a repeat somewhere in this thread but if you want to jump with non A-licensed skydivers and don't intend on getting a tandem or an AFF rating, the S&TA can write a waiver stating that you are qualified to 'coach' these people and then it is 'legal' to do so. The letter just needs to be renewed every year as I understand it.
Courtney
Without the rating there isn't any evidence that they can. I'm sure that Winsor is capable, but the rating helps to weed out the ones that aren't.
It is customary in arguing for a change, especially a restrictive change, to present evidence that the change is beneficial.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.