Reason to get a Coach Rating?

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

The SIM does state that the S&TA can waive the coach requirements for any person holding a D-license at the dropzone. So if jumpers such as yourself, winsor and others want to jump with novices without getting your coach rating you can. You just need to get approval from your S&TA.

I've been an instructor for years. As I said my beef is paying $20 per year for the rating. As an instructor one of my responsibilities is to force new students to become USPA members. I should not have to pay for that.

never pull low......unless you are

[crwmike 0]

Quote

Twice as much?

Lets see (I'll use SD Aggieland):
Gear rental: $25
Lift Ticket: $18
Packjob: $5

Total: $48

Now a jump with a Coach is $65.

So they're paying $17 more for training, ground and air.

When I see someone attempt to obfuscate a pretty simple issue, I immediate become suspicious of their motives and their ethics ...and that, brother, pretty much shoots your advocacy for the coach 'rating' to hell and back.

Come on, Dave. You might as well have included milage allowances for travel to and from the DZ.

Based on numerous converstions over the years, I'd guesstimate that about 8 out of 10 tandem masters express much the same views as you. Observing their limited communication and interaction with their 'student' few even come close. Let's assume you are in the minority and actually do what you claim (good on ya!), but back to the coach issue ...

Mega experienced skydivers are prohibited from jumping with and teaching novices because it infringes on the protected turf of the business of skydiving. If you don't see that, you either can't or won't.

For the other poster who indicated it was a simple matter of the S&TA issuing a waiver ...won't happen much longer. With notable exceptions we don't have too many S&TA's who will take bread off the table of the DZO. They are pretty much chosen because their hearts and minds are in the 'right' place ...and incidently have a bit of experience and technical knowledge. Wait a small number of years, and you'll see this type of waiver about as common as one allowing the mega-experienced to take up a tandem.

Safety issue?? Follow the money, Dave. It seldom leads you astray.

Quote

Well, if I'm taking a Cat G student up, I help them determin the spot, check their gear, teach them the proper exit, how to accomplish the body flight they need, help them plan their landing pattern and apply all of this, then take between 10-30 minutes debriefing everything about their jump. Including their exit, freefall, tracking, deployment, canopy flight and landing.

Well ...damn, why didn't we think of that?

Quote

That is hardly a money maker for a DZ, they're actually loosing money by providing exceptional training for their student jumpers.

Don't be impatient, son. Give it a little time. It's a new business and is barely off the ground.

Peace,

Michael

[faulknerwn 38]

And it used to be that experienced jumpers would do all you are talking about for free. Not for a free jump and $5. But for free because they love the sport.

You're at a Cessna dropzone - that's where you normally see more of the sharing for the love of the sport instead of money or free jumps.

When I do coaching jumps at my drop zone, I pay my own slot. I don't get paid. And I enjoy it. I've probably taught at least 2-300 people on their first CRW jump. I've never charged $5, a jump, a pack job - I pay my own slot and teach because I love it. I get as much out of it as they do.

I remember years ago when I was fresh off of student status doing a jump with Derek Thomas and another couple that same weekend with Roger Nelson. I had no idea who they were at the time, but they jumped with newbies for free, just teaching for the fun of it. I feel sad that at many small dropzones now experienced jumpers want a free slot and money to work with a newbie instead of sharing for the good of the sport. I was practically broke when I learned to skydive - struggling to come up with $15 for a jump - I just borrowed gear from friends and packed myself - paying $68 for a jump would have cut my jumping my 80%. Luckily the sport wasn't nearly as money-hungry back then or I probably wouldn't be jumping today. People helped me for free, as I'll do the same for others now.

W

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I believe the notion Mike has is that every dropzone has rules set in place now that the ISP is in effect which prevent people other than school staff from taking people on coach dives. Personally, I don't care if you are working for the school or not; if you have a rating then you are free to coach anyone you like for free. Yes, there are dropzones out there that will mandate that you use only their instructors and pay their fees, but ours is not one of them.

At small Cessna dropzones, like the one my dad owns and operates in Alabama, when you get the requisite experience you are expected to get your ratings so that you can give back to the sport. Everyone benefits in that model.

Chuck

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, now that I'm being demonized as a money hungry instructor...

Wendy, you probably know Doc Stewart, he's been jumping in Texas since dirt was pebbles. Anyways, he did the same thing for me, became my "sea daddy" taking me under his arm and teaching me as much as he could.

I do the same and did the same, when the BSRs changed, I went and got my coach rating so I could continue to do it. Especially once a jumper has their license, I'll take them up and do 2-ways, or help them organize 3-ways/4-ways and jump with them. Do I charge them? Nope. While they're a student, that's through the DZ, so I jump with them or another one of the coaches jump with them (especially some of the guys that got their coach rating specifically to do that, very experienced and very good jumpers).

IMHO, the ISP with the Coaches give structure to a system that previously varied widely from DZ to DZ and from student to student. Not every student had a jumper do what was done for me. Not every student had someone that would help them continue to learn after completing AFF or SL.

I say give it time, the system will prove its self. Did you know that when tandem jumping was first concieved that there was no rating for it, basically almost no training for it. Same with SL jumps back in the day, if you had a handful of jumps and the DZO thought you were a heads up person, they'd have you JM a load of students. Now, years later, you don't hear people bitching about spending money to get those ratings.


Side note:
As much as folks bitch about tandems, how many DZs do you know would continue to have their large turbine aircraft if it wasn't for that? How many would have to raise jump tickets to $30+? How many of the folks out there actually understand the break down of DZ economics? What makes aircraft fly? Money, pure and simple.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[crwmike 0]

Quote

I believe the notion Mike has is that every dropzone has rules set in place now that the ISP is in effect which prevent people other than school staff from taking people on coach dives. Personally, I don't care if you are working for the school or not; if you have a rating then you are free to coach anyone you like for free. Yes, there are dropzones out there that will mandate that you use only their instructors and pay their fees, but ours is not one of them.

I suspect Raeford will be an exception. No, I don't believe rules are in widely in place. They will be. Just give it time. Hell, I know several DZ's where we can't bring somebody to pack for us. cause it infringes on the local packer's income.

At small Cessna dropzones, like the one my dad owns and operates in Alabama, when you get the requisite experience you are expected to get your ratings so that you can give back to the sport. Everyone benefits in that model.

[kallend 2,106]

Dave

I doubt you'll get rich being a USPA coach, and I'm sure you had motive besides the pecuniary. However, the point about this that irks me isn't that you can charge $5 for a coach jump. It's that the guy who mentored me when I was a beginner is no longer allowed to do it for others without first jumping through a bunch of hoops and paying a fee to USPA. This guy has 10 times the experience you do, he started jumping in 1964, is a master rigger, world record holder, and has a three digit D license number.

By what possible criteria can USPA now say he is unqualified to jump at his own expense with novices?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

By what possible criteria can USPA now say he is unqualified to jump at his own expense with novices?

By the same criteria used to determine that 200 jumps is no longer enough for a D license. The sport is evolving, some good, some not so good. Formal training for coaches is a good thing. The sport is becomming more commercialized. Things that used to be free now have a fee attached. There was a thread a while back about an S &TA charging to sign off licenses. That is the direction the sport is going.

Derek

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

By what possible criteria can USPA now say he is unqualified to jump at his own expense with novices?

Perhaps what the USPA is saying is that as far as they know, every Joe Blow without a coach rating probably is, or may well be, unqualified to jump at his own expense with novices. And there are two ways to convince the USPA otherwise (from what I have read on this thread): Have the DZ's S&TA write a waiver when she sees he has had more jumps than most of us have had hot meals, or send the guy through the hoops.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Quote

By what possible criteria can USPA now say he is unqualified to jump at his own expense with novices?

By the same criteria used to determine that 200 jumps is no longer enough for a D license. The sport is evolving, some good, some not so good. Formal training for coaches is a good thing. The sport is becomming more commercialized. Things that used to be free now have a fee attached. There was a thread a while back about an S &TA charging to sign off licenses. That is the direction the sport is going.

Derek

1. The D holders with fewer than 500 jumps were grandfathered.

2. NO criterion was used to determine that this guy is unqualified. From being previously qualified according to the old SIM, he just suddenly became unqualified because USPA said so.

3. 2 days of formal training plus 100 jumps is better than thousands of jumps and 30+ years in the sport. You have to be kidding.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

1. The D holders with fewer than 500 jumps were grandfathered.

They were grandfathered because they already had a D license. If they had 200 jumps and no D license, they now need 500 jumps to get the same license they were qualified for before the change.

Quote

2. NO criterion was used to determine that this guy is unqualified. From being previously qualified according to the old SIM, he just suddenly became unqualified because USPA said so.

And no criteria was used to determine that he was qualified. There was no standard, now there is. Just as the guy with 400 jumps and no D license just became unqualified for a D license, even though they were before the change.

Quote

3. 2 days of formal training plus 100 jumps is better than thousands of jumps and 30+ years in the sport. You have to be kidding.

I didn't say that. A national standard is better than no standard at all. It shouldn't be a difficult rating to get for him and he may learn something.

Another alternative is get the S & TA to waiver him. If the S &TA won't waiver him then either he shouldn't be waivered or the S &TA should be replaced with one that can do the job.

Derek

[jumpgod 0]

i guess i'd recommend it to anyone who likes to teach others. also, it makes you a 'very' skilled jumper and prepares you for AFF Instructor's Ratings.

"dude, where's my main?"

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

also, it makes you a 'very' skilled jumper ...

Silly of me to have missed that part.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

Silly of me to have missed that part.

John, you don't know a damn thing. You should know that by now. 1300 jumps......now if you had 250 jumps and a Coach course, you would be a VERY skilled jumper.....instead, you're just some guy with 1300 jumps. I guess I'm in the same boat as you, though....sorry, pitiful us. We can't help newbies one little bit.

Mike

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

John, you don't know a damn thing. You should know that by now. 1300 jumps......now if you had 250 jumps and a Coach course, you would be a VERY skilled jumper.....instead, you're just some guy with 1300 jumps. I guess I'm in the same boat as you, though....sorry, pitiful us. We can't help newbies one little bit.

I don't doubt either of you have the skills to teach work with students cleared to self J/M. You could both probably pass the AFFCC if you wanted to. Does this mean you should be handed AFFI ratings? If you should handed Coach ratings, what about the guy w/ 100 less jumps than you? 200? 300? 1000? At what point should someone have to go through the course to get the rating? Are 20,000 hour pilots automatically given CFI ratings?

I have seen someone with 2,500 jumps fail the AFFCC. Twice. At the AFFCC I went through, 7 of 15 people passed. Of the 8 that didn’t, none had less than 1000 jumps. Working with students is a completely different mindset. They’ll miss things you take for granted and pick up on stuff you didn’t even notice.

The course is not a big deal. I bet you would learn something. It is also a chance for the staff at the DZ to brief you what they teach, what they don’t teach, how they teach something, etc. If you are dead set against attending a Coach Course, talk to your S &TA. Get them to waiver you.

Derek

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Nice one, Derek. Personally, I though my post was a pretty good analogy, but as you posted last, yours is best.

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Quote

John, you don't know a damn thing. You should know that by now. 1300 jumps......now if you had 250 jumps and a Coach course, you would be a VERY skilled jumper.....instead, you're just some guy with 1300 jumps. I guess I'm in the same boat as you, though....sorry, pitiful us. We can't help newbies one little bit.

I don't doubt either of you have the skills to teach work with students cleared to self J/M. You could both probably pass the AFFCC if you wanted to. Does this mean you should be handed AFFI ratings? If you should handed Coach ratings, what about the guy w/ 100 less jumps than you? 200? 300? 1000? At what point should someone have to go through the course to get the rating? Are 20,000 hour pilots automatically given CFI ratings?

I have seen someone with 2,500 jumps fail the AFFCC. Twice. At the AFFCC I went through, 7 of 15 people passed. Of the 8 that didn’t, none had less than 1000 jumps. Working with students is a completely different mindset. They’ll miss things you take for granted and pick up on stuff you didn’t even notice.

The course is not a big deal. I bet you would learn something. It is also a chance for the staff at the DZ to brief you what they teach, what they don’t teach, how they teach something, etc. If you are dead set against attending a Coach Course, talk to your S &TA. Get them to waiver you.

Derek

This is not about AFF ratings, it is about EXCLUDING very experienced skydivers from continuing to do what they have successfully done in the past.

I rarely agree with CRWMIKE, but in this case, he's dead right.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

This is not about AFF ratings, it is about EXCLUDING very experienced skydivers from continuing to do what they have successfully done in the past.

The AFFI rating was an analogy.

There is now a standard for what some have done successfully in the past and some have not. Should everyone that has worked with pre-A license students be grand fathered and made a Coach? Not grand fathering some people has the result of some qualified people no longer being able to work with pre-A license jumpers. It also prevents unqualified people from being able to work with pre-A license jumpers. Which is the lesser of the two evils?

How would you have implemented the Coach Rating?

Again, if they are qualified, they can get wavered, problem solved.

If the paperwork can get to me before the end of the month, and you give me some background information on the individual, I’ll waiver him. Again, problem solved.

I’ll extend this offer to Windsor too.

I have offered two solutions to this specific problem. This is the most I can do.

Derek

[bodypilot90 0]

Quote

I rarely agree with CRWMIKE, but in this case, he's dead right.

Do i have to admit I agree with you, kallend! Crwmike is right on the money here.

shhh don't tell Amazon.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I forgot to add, I'll sign off on waivering the Coach requirement for you too, John.

Derek

[kallend 2,106]

And if a coach doesn't pay his/her renewal fee to USPA does s/he suddenly become unqualified?

Weren't existing JMs grandfathered into "instructors" in the new scheme without having demonstrated instructor qualifications?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

I forgot to add, I'll sign off on waivering the Coach requirement for you too, John.

Derek

If you truly believe what you have written about demonstrating competence, how could you justify doing this for someone you've never met?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

And if a coach doesn't pay his/her renewal fee to USPA does s/he suddenly become unqualified?

No, but in 10 days I will no longer be able to teach students. Am I suddenly unqualified?

Quote

Weren't existing JMs grandfathered into "instructors" in the new scheme without having demonstrated instructor qualifications?

No, if I remeber correctly,they had to demonstrate air skills to become an instructor if they were only a S/L JM or IAD JM.

I have offered a solution, the ball is in your court. You don't have to pay me or USPA any money and you, your friend that has been working with newbies forever and Windsor can all work with pre-A license students. Do you want the solution or do you want to complain?

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

If you truly believe what you have written about demonstrating competence, how could you justify doing this for someone you've never met?

Are you competent to make a judgement about their abilities and yours? Then I trust you.

I am trying to help and you refuse to let me.

Derek

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I am trying to help and you refuse to let me.

I don't think this was ever about actually being able to coach newbies.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.