Perris hoop course?

[ladyskydiver 0]

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Yes, similar to what Perris requires.

Hi, Shark!
K....question for you and others...

Since a lot of D licensed skydivers who are no longer going for licenses/ratings do not get their log books signed and since the DZ is going above and beyond USPA and FAA requirements, how is the DZ going to handle people like Billvon that does not get signatures in his logbook any more? Billvon stated earlier that he doesn't get signatures in his logbook so are you telling me that if Billvon goes to Elsinore that he'd be rejected from jumping at Elsinore since he doesn't have signatures in his logbook? Exactly what would Elsinore do in that instance? And, assume (for the sake of discussion) that no-one that was on Bill's last jump or was at Perris that day is around for him to get a signature on a jump.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[VectorBoy 0]

Usually they would call the DZ's manifest and verify that there have been recent jumps.

[kallend 2,026]

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Usually they would call the DZ's manifest and verify that there have been recent jumps.

And what if that is in, say, Minnesota or North Dakota and closed for the winter, which is why the jumper went to CA over the winter break in the first place?

Seems to me that requiring a visiting jumper to produce evidence that neither USPA nor FAA asks the jumper to have kept is a bit strange.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[VectorBoy 0]

I agree it is strange. I know of a jumper that didn't have ID and was turned away and very upset, not from perris but a nearby DZ.

[Nightingale 0]

Not having ID is a totally valid reason for a DZ to turn someone away.

Without a photo id, they could be:

1. underage and walking around with someone else's logbook.

2. trying to use someone else's credit card to pay for jumps.

3. of age, but uncurrent, and trying to avoid recurrency problems, so using someone else's logbook.

4. a problem jumper they'd been warned about trying to use someone else's name.

without a valid way of identifying someone, it is completely understandable that the DZ won't let them jump.

[Shark 0]

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Yes, similar to what Perris requires.

Hi, Shark!
K....question for you and others...

Since a lot of D licensed skydivers who are no longer going for licenses/ratings do not get their log books signed and since the DZ is going above and beyond USPA and FAA requirements, how is the DZ going to handle people like Billvon that does not get signatures in his logbook any more? Billvon stated earlier that he doesn't get signatures in his logbook so are you telling me that if Billvon goes to Elsinore that he'd be rejected from jumping at Elsinore since he doesn't have signatures in his logbook? Exactly what would Elsinore do in that instance? And, assume (for the sake of discussion) that no-one that was on Bill's last jump or was at Perris that day is around for him to get a signature on a jump.

Hi Ladyskydiver!

Well, nobody has checked my logbook lately, either... The point being that he is not new to Elsinore, and has, at least, jumped there within the the guidelines of D license currency. New jumpers are probably going to be carefully scrutinized. I think that would be prudent. Manifest does a very good job and annually will photo copy my USPA card, and every other jumper when membership is renewed. They are also aware of when your Reserve is due or out of date. If it had been over 6 months to a year that someone had jumped there, I'd check to see if they were current. Personally, I log every jump, but get signatures occasionally; at least 1 per page which holds info for 6 jumps.

[RippedCord 0]

This all sounds alot like making sure the casino is in touch with your bank and that your credit line (or cashier's check) is all set to go BEFORE you get on the plane to Vegas.

AMDG

[Shark 0]

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This all sounds alot like making sure the casino is in touch with your bank and that your credit line (or cashier's check) is all set to go BEFORE you get on the plane to Vegas.

How about a dropzone making sure you are qualified to actually make a safe jump? I have heard from one S&TA that questioned the experience of a "newly" licensed jumper that has never jumped at this DZ. The jumper was asked and presented his log book of "currency" and verified jumps. Under examination, he was surprised to find several of the jumps had been "signed" with the S&TA's name. Now, I have seen the S&TA's signature and it is illegible. The signatures in the logbook were clearly forged and when a careful investigation was completed, only a few jumps were actual, without ever having passed higher level AFF jumps. Would you want to jump with this person on an LO or fun jump? Safety is the issue and I do not blame a DZ for protecting their assets. This is lawsuit-happy California.

[RippedCord 0]

Ummm ... just to be sure I'm clear; my point was that the DZs' policies seemed perfectly reasonable and that just like the Credit Department of the casino wants to make sure your markers are good, the DZ wants to make sure your ego isn't writing checks your body can't cash (to borrow a phrase from Top Gun :D).

And, that its a good idea to call ahead to manifest to see what kind of documentation they'll want from you.

AMDG

[Shark 0]

I didn't really understand the analogy, and I don't gamble. So, I didn't get it. And the last time I was in Vegas, I didn't remember if the casino offered a creditline for the slots.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I hope the forger in your story was reported to the USPA and banned for life... thats who you would never want to trust on a jump and an accident waiting to happen. He'd find it far harder to kill people on a golf course!

[quade 4]

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Seems to me that requiring a visiting jumper to produce evidence that neither USPA nor FAA asks the jumper to have kept is a bit strange.

Any business can, to protect itself, create and enforce -any- rules it wants to over and above government and industry standards.

For instance, Disneyland has a minimal and unposted dress code for customers. Show up with a t-shirt that says "Fuck you" on it and you'll be asked to change, turn it inside out or cover it up.

Is this against a person's 1st Amendment rights? No. Because the 1st Amendment usually doesn't apply on private property when applied to the relationship between owner and customer.

Some restaurants require jackets and ties for men.

There are some drop zones that require Cypres units to be installed and turned on. Is that above government and industry standards? Yes. Anything wrong with that? No. It's simply the rules of that particular business. If you don't like the rule, fine, go somewhere else.

One drop zone that I can think of tries to suppress the usage of certain swear words by its customers.

Perris is one of the most successful drop zones on the planet. If a person thinks getting waivered and showing a couple of signatures and some ID is too much of a hassle for him, then I really have little sympathy for his cause.

It's just business, nothing personal.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jmpnkramer 0]

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If a person thinks getting waivered and showing a couple of signatures and some ID is too much of a hassle for him, then I really have little sympathy for his cause.

Not a problem with showing signatures and all but the Uninformed Female who checked my log book needs to become more knowledgeable about the U.S.P.A.

If that is what the Drop Zone requires then fine. Say that Perris requires the signature. She argued with me that the U.S.P.A. required the signature. On top of that she wanted to argue with me about whether or not the person with me was on the jump because this is not a requirement either.

I was highly disapponted with the individuals tact and lack of knowledge. In my opinion she needs to be re-trained. Maybe she was having a bad day but if that is the case then she should have not come to work.

I never acted that way towards a customer even when they got angry or belligerant with me. If the customer got out of hand and I was unable to satisfy them I kindly asked for them to see the manager.

I know Perris is a very successful Drop Zone and has some phenominal Skydivers but it was my first impression. Not the way to increase business or get more word of mouth out.

Just my feelings on the situation I went through.

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[kallend 2,026]

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If a person thinks getting waivered and showing a couple of signatures and some ID is too much of a hassle for him, then I really have little sympathy for his cause.

It's just business, nothing personal.

It's ridiculous, Paul. They have no way of knowing if the signatures are genuine.

If they take on trust that the signatures are genuine, then how is that different from taking on trust if a skydiver states that he/she is current or has no medically disqualifying condition?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybytch 273]

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but the Fat-Ass Female

Nice personal attack there.

[jmpnkramer 0]

I do not know who it was. I did not name a name and I doubt that the individual is on this thread because they did not seem like a skydiver.

I explained that if your going to have someone give an experienced skydiver a hassle you better know what the hell you are talking about.

I know all of you Perris people are going to defend the drop zone and that is cool.

All I am saying is that there was no need for the individual to get ignorant about the situation. Especially since she tried to quote the U.S.P.A. in which she was wrong in doing so. She should have stated that it was a DZ requirement.

Learn & Know your job if you are going to SHOW YOUR ASS!!! Otherwise you can get embarrassed real easily and look like the fool that you are!

If the individual felt that I was wrong then they should have gotten management. I have a witness though so I know it was the worker bee with the attitude.

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[skybytch 273]

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I do not know who it was. I did not name a name and I doubt that the individual is on this thread because they did not seem like a skydiver.

Doesn't matter if you think the person reads these forums or not. A personal attack is a personal attack.

Respect. It's something that can be lost so very easily.

[jmpnkramer 0]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

I guess I am wrong I would think that a personal attack would be mentioning an individual by name.

Since it Bothers you that much though it will be changed as soon as I post this reply.

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[quade 4]

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It's ridiculous, Paul. They have no way of knowing if the signatures are genuine.

Really? Worthy of ridicule?

When doing a gear check of a visiting skydiver I guess the rigger's signature is also somewhat taken on faith that the rig was not simply pencil packed, but I guess the person doing the checking probably still should check it anyway.

I'm not exactly certain if Perris even -requires- signatures in a skydiver's logbook, but in the case of showing the logbook -- well, there is a space for the signatures so I can understand why somebody might think a signature should probably go there.

The USPA does require signatures in the logbook for the purposes of obtaining licenses and ratings (USPA SIM 3-1 C). I think it would be reasonable to check for signatures in logbooks for visiting skydivers with A, B or C licenses. That said, if someone showed a USPA card with a D License and other advanced ratings on it, then I would think you could probably skip looking for signatures, but even then a prudent thing to do whould be to check the logbook for the purposes of currency.

I really don't think checking these things qualifies as ridiculous.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 2,026]

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It's ridiculous, Paul. They have no way of knowing if the signatures are genuine.

Really? Worthy of ridicule?

When doing a gear check of a visiting skydiver I guess the rigger's signature is also somewhat taken on faith that the rig was not simply pencil packed, but I guess the person doing the checking probably still should check it anyway.

I'm not exactly certain if Perris even -requires- signatures in a skydiver's logbook, but in the case of showing the logbook -- well, there is a space for the signatures so I can understand why somebody might think a signature should probably go there.

The USPA does require signatures in the logbook for the purposes of obtaining licenses and ratings (USPA SIM 3-1 C). I think it would be reasonable to check for signatures in logbooks for visiting skydivers with A, B or C licenses. That said, if someone showed a USPA card with a D License and other advanced ratings on it, then I would think you could probably skip looking for signatures, but even then a prudent thing to do whould be to check the logbook for the purposes of currency.

I really don't think checking these things qualifies as ridiculous.

Maybe you haven't read the whole thread. When I went to Perris in Oct. for POPS, with my D license and up-to-date log book in hand (but no signatures for months since there is no FAA or USPA requirement that I have them) they wouldn't accept it.

But they accepted a statement over my own signature that I was medically fit. For consistency, why not require an MD's signature.

Do they accept their jump-pilots' self certification of currency. FAA does.

I think it's worthy of ridicule. I am ridiculing it right here and now.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jmpnkramer 0]

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That said, if someone showed a USPA card with a D License and other advanced ratings on it, then I would think you could probably skip looking for signatures

Righto Mr. Quade. This is what I was talking about. The individual argued with me that it was required by the U.S.P.A. for everyone to have signatures. Then argued further that the person signing my jump needed to have been on it!

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Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

or

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Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

Neither of which applied to me personally since I have an instructor rating but my point is that the individual does not need to be on the jump as the employee also argued.

The Bottom line is that the employee checking the information needs to state that it is a Perris requirement and stop trying to quote the U.S.P.A. unless they know exactly what is stipulated through them and where to find it in the S.I.M.

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

In response to Quade and in support of Kallend, just to clarify ... I specifically remember getting frustrated with the person checking me in when I showed her my AFF-I rating card and she still needed my last jump to be signed. Paul is right as far as signatures required for ratings and licenses but like others have said, once someone has achieved a D license or jump #s enough to get their instructional ratings, there is no real need to get jumps signed other than wanting someone's autograph in your logbook. My opinion is since I had already been through that process by the governing organization (USPA), I have already demonstrated to USPA jump numbers with signatures. IMHO, that should be enough for a USPA DZ.

On the flip side if Perris wanted to make sure I was current for safety reasons by checking the date of my last jump dated in my logbook, fine and totally reasonable. But giving me a hard time or questioning my credibility as a jumper because it was not signed when I have an AFF rating is a little overboard and I would change that part of the check in process.

And again, as someone else posted somewhere in this thread, the solution to this problem is to just make sure you have your logbook with you if you plan to jump at Perris and make sure your last jump is signed.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[billvon 2,989]

>It's ridiculous, Paul. They have no way of knowing if the signatures
>are genuine.

Just because something can be faked does not make it ridiculous. Is your pilot's logbook ridiculous? How about your packing data card, or aircraft maintenance logs? I know of people who have faked all the above and gotten away with it. Given that, would you not even ask to seen an aircraft's maintenance logs if you were trying to decide if you wanted to buy an aircraft?

[gemini 0]

At the big way camp last June, Perris asked me for my logbook and would not accept the Protrac in lieu of the logbook. I had to have my home dz fax a copy of the last page of my jumps from JUmpRun which Perris did accept.

As a D jumper, I had been negligent in logging my jumps for quite a while. I am now logging them again.

Blue skies,

Jim

[kallend 2,026]

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>It's ridiculous, Paul. They have no way of knowing if the signatures
>are genuine.

Just because something can be faked does not make it ridiculous. Is your pilot's logbook ridiculous? How about your packing data card, or aircraft maintenance logs? I know of people who have faked all the above and gotten away with it. Given that, would you not even ask to seen an aircraft's maintenance logs if you were trying to decide if you wanted to buy an aircraft?

Apples and oranges.

Neither FAA, USPA, nor anyone else, requires me to get someone else's signature in my pilot's log book or skydiving log book each time I fly or jump in order to prove currency. If FAA and USPA trusts my honesty about currency, why can't Perris?

Perris trusts my honesty about my medical state. Why do they think I'm honest about that but can't be trusted about my currency?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.