Bolas 5 #1 November 10, 2003 See a new guy in a white jumpsuit with a new Javelin Odessey. Compliment him on the rig but had to go get ready for the plane. I'm sitting next to him on the ride to altitiude introduce myself and start asking the questions: name, home DZ, # of jumps, Main, and exit weight. Well he tells me he just got off student status and has been jumping at my DZ. So I think he probably has 20 ish jumps. He's 220 out the door and has a Sabre2 190 (Kind of aggressive but not unheard of). Turns out he's just got off AFF status and has 9 jumps!!! That kinda scared me so I tell him about minimizing low turns on landing you can land downwind or crosswind. I watched him land from above. He started a 180 at (I guess) less than 300 feet. I though I was gonna see him dive for the ground but I have to give him this: he kept the canopy above him the whole time and he landed in a PLF crosswind. He was fine. I'll admit it... I'm the worst person to talk about for downsizing. I have the same 1 to 1 canopy for over 200 jumps and I haven't tried a front riser landing (pulling 'em down is a bitch on a Sabre 210 ). I have jumped some 190's and few 170's but was advised against getting them until I maxed out my current canopy. I can land crosswind, downwind, no wind, no problems. I want to take Scott Miller's course before I try anything and I haven't made it to Deland yet. IMCWO (In My Completely Worthless Opinion) Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #2 November 10, 2003 >1.15 is too much for a person who was just cleared for self supervision. I don't think it's neccessarily the wingloading itself, but rather the training. If a jumper starts on a 1:1 wingloading, and gets extensive instruction on how to land, say, a Sabre 1 at 1:1, AND they get training when they downsize, it may be possible to safely jump a 1.15 to 1 safely at 10-15 jumps. Of course, if he's been jumping a Manta for the past 10 jumps, making the jump to a 1.15 to 1 without training is a very bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #3 November 10, 2003 I think all the student rigs have Navigator 260's or 280's. I just wish I had his money... Able to afford AFF and student training AND fairly new gear... Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripper0289 0 #4 November 10, 2003 OK, I have a question, I'm an AFF student, my exit weight is 210 and I'm using a 210sq. ft student canopy. The DZ has a 190 and I've been wondering if it is easier to flare a smaller canopy. It seems like it would be a trade off, smaller canopy, faster forward speed, maybe a better flare. Am I wrong on this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #5 November 10, 2003 I just finished aff. I weigh 150 + gear. Been jumping a 240. Tomorrow, I'll be jumping a 230 rental from square 1. I've just learned how to land fairly well, so I'm only downsizing when instructors/coaches tell me I'm ready. That's part of what I pay them for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #6 November 10, 2003 Easier to flare? Are you talking about easier to stand up? What kind of mains are these? Are they Zero P?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kai2k1 0 #7 November 10, 2003 QuoteI just wish I had his money... Able to afford AFF and student training AND fairly new gear... No shit!! I wish i knew how to pull off that trick. There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #8 November 10, 2003 >The DZ has a 190 and I've been wondering if it is easier to flare a smaller canopy. It is more difficult to get a good landing out of a smaller canopy. If you know how to fly it, you can get "cooler" landings out of a smaller canopy. The larger canopy will always land you going more slowly, if flown with the same competence as the larger canopy, but that's often not considered a "better" landing. The reason this misperception exists is that many skydivers can get excellent landings out of small canopies, and people see a progression of new jumpers landing larger canopies poorly and more experienced jumpers landing smaller canopies well. But the big difference is in experience, not canopy size. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripper0289 0 #9 November 10, 2003 Easier to do stand up landings, that's what I'm after, but the more I think about it, the more it seems I just need more experience to know when to start flaring, seems I'm always a few feet too late in starting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bsoder 0 #10 November 10, 2003 I have 13 jumps now. I weigh about 265, I've been jumping a Navigator 260 since my first jump, so my loading is somewhere around 1.15, give or take. I've done fine with it, but I've also been aware that I'm loaded higher than most students, and I've PLFed most of my landings, just because it's taken me perhaps a bit longer to find the exact timing for landing since I'm coming in faster. It probably helps a lot that it's a Navigator, which according to PD is very very forgiving. I've tried to stall it up high and simply can't - with the toggles all the way down, it just flutters a bit on the back edge but stays right in place. Landing my 13th... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #11 November 10, 2003 > It probably helps a lot that it's a Navigator, which according to PD is very very forgiving. It also helps that the parachute is so big. A 1.15 loading on a 260 will be a lot more forgiving than a 1.15 loading on a 120. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bsoder 0 #12 November 10, 2003 Yeah, I was actually going to ask that on another thread. Is there any sort of "rule of thumb" w/regard to canopy size, wingloading, and exit weight? ie - if my exit weight/wingload is 300/1.15, and my wife has an exit weight of around say 165, what wingloading would be roughly equivalent? Any idea? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #13 November 10, 2003 Not only did he probably not get any good advice on canopy selection, he has no bidness in a white jumpsuit! Not till he learns to fly that canopy anyway! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #14 November 10, 2003 >if my exit weight/wingload is 300/1.15, and my wife has an exit > weight of around say 165, what wingloading would be roughly > equivalent? John LeBlanc once did a presentation on this. He put up about a million slides, each asking one question i.e. is the turn rate on a 1:1 loaded Stiletto 170 the same as the turn rate on a 1:1 Stiletto 120? Is there an equivalent loading on a Stiletto 170 that will make it act like a Stiletto 120? etc. etc. At the end of the presentation, he put up a final slide that said "NO." It's very hard to make any hard and fast determinations on what's equivalent. A smaller canopy at the same loading will fly about as fast but turn much more quickly. Glide ratio won't change much though. Do you just want the same speed? Then 1.15 to 1 may work well at any size. Do you want to turn at the same speed? Then the smaller you go at 1.15 to 1 the larger canopy you can live with. It's all part of canopy selection, which is one reason it's very hard to recommend a canopy over the net. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #15 November 11, 2003 Nice landing Bsoder...!...you enjoyed it anyways! I'm a <40 jumps jumper....just buying my first rig ( and its brand new !!) but am umming and ahhing over the canopy size ...just like some have mentioned here. I'm a good lander...(was throughout AFF...all tippy toes on dem Manta 280's and later 240's) Im 230 out the door and have to choose between a 215 and 235 ZP.Exe main....my instructor says I could go either way....obviously just a faster final on the 215....its a tough call...I think both are OK...but that 215 may have a bit more 'longevity' in the progression stakes.....but then again you dont want to overload yourself......hmm its tough Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #16 November 11, 2003 QuoteI think all the student rigs have Navigator 260's or 280's. I just wish I had his money... Able to afford AFF and student training AND fairly new gear... It may have been paid for by VISA. That's how I funded my entry into scuba when I was 23, though it is a bit cheaper to do - perhaps 2500$ rather than the 2+4k this guy probably laid out as a minimum. I generally encourage people to wait a little bit before buying dive gear, beyond perhaps a custom wetsuit for those who get cold easily. Certainly you'd hate to spend the money on a canopy that would be considering underloading in short order, but at 9 jumps, yeah, I'd think it would be best to keep using the rental gear. Nonetheless, some people find they're less likely to stray or get lazy once they've committed the capital into their own gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinfarmer 0 #17 November 11, 2003 My exit weight is about 175 and I've been jumping a 169 for the last several jumps. My instructors say I'm fine with it and I do have much better landings then with the 209s I jumped before but I wonder if it's to small for someone of my experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZoneRat 0 #18 November 11, 2003 I had a hundred-ish jumps. So did my friends. They were going to do a "Dig Me" video. One of the tricks was to "Face each other and both barrel roll". Right before the jump they were telling me about it over lunch. "Oh, No", I said. "Don't face each other and barrel roll. You might hit each other. People tend to legs out on those and drive forward!". "Thanks for the tip, but we'll be be fine." they assured. Sure enough, they careened towards each other like missiles. The video guy recorded it back in slo-mo. Made for great video in a "Jesus that was close", kinda way... . Had they actually conked heads it woulda been ... well, pretty effin' hard. But they didn't. And that was cool. When they showed me the video, I felt so... vindicated. They did just exactly as I said they would. A more experienced jumper clued me in: They might not have "Careened towards each other like missiles" had I not planted the seed about the legs out just prior to the jump. Oh?!? ... oh. hmm... Did this happen to you? Did your greenie crosswind a plf after an aborted 180° because of your conversation on ride to altitude? Hell. Who knows. Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not... maybe your advice saved his femur... but ... When you're talkin' to a greenie, consider talking about perfect landing patterns, not evil low turns and crosswind plf's. Sure. They gotta know that stuff. But maybe not right before a jump. Someone clued me in to that idea of "Only talk about what you WANT them to do, not what you DON'T want them to do" right after my friends near miss. I'm not trying to condemn your concerns or actions. I think you did a good hearted thing. Just tryin to pay that positive seed idea forward. As far as the 1.15/1 wingloading goes. If his instructors thinks it's ok, I guess I do too. Surely at 9 jumps he asked SOMEBODY about the gear he was jumping. Hopefully it was his instructors. Wouldn't hurt to mention the windloading thing to them... just to make sure they are aware of it... Just my CWO “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #19 November 12, 2003 Shouldn't that read "It also helps that the larger canopy has longer lines (and thus a longer leverage)"? As what i got from the "common misconceptions" article from John LeBlanc the determining factors on handling are wingloading for speed and line legth & setting for "agility"(leverage/input responsiveness).The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #20 November 12, 2003 QuoteSomeone clued me in to that idea of "Only talk about what you WANT them to do, not what you DON'T want them to do" right after my friends near miss. I'm not trying to condemn your concerns or actions. I think you did a good hearted thing. Just tryin to pay that positive seed idea forward. Very good point, as people tend to visualize unconsciously. Will try and remember it in the future (note to self). Like the "Don't think about a pink elephant" thing. Pictured a pink elephant?The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #21 November 12, 2003 >Shouldn't that read "It also helps that the larger canopy has longer >lines (and thus a longer leverage)"? ? not sure what you mean. The applicable quote from the PD site is: ---------------------- The big canopy, with its long lines, has relatively sluggish reaction to the controls, and the small canopy has relatively quick reaction to the controls. This is due to the fact that the large canopy must move the jumper a much greater distance out to the side, in order to achieve a certain bank angle needed for any given turn rate. This means that the smaller version of a canopy will feel much more agile, even if flown at the same wing loading. ---------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #22 November 12, 2003 QuoteA more experienced jumper clued me in: They might not have "Careened towards each other like missiles" had I not planted the seed about the legs out just prior to the jump. Oh?!? ... oh. hmm... Well i'm a greenie and the two times I plf'd occurred on the jumps where my instructor went over the art of the proper plf. So when I was coming in on final all I could think about was what he had said about plf'ing and saving my ankles. At that moment it felt like the natural thing to do as all I could hear in my head was him telling me to not be afraid to plf, although i've stood up similar landings since then. When I was told not to reach out when docking, I of course reached out to try to dock! Oh one more thing, someone told me not to get fixated on the pump house when landing (Byron, CA)... well things turned out ok as I saw people on the ground waving me away and I realized what was happening. Chalk one up to Heissenberg. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZoneRat 0 #23 November 12, 2003 Quote Well i'm a greenie and the two times I plf'd occurred on the jumps where my instructor went over the art of the proper plf. So when I was coming in on final all I could think about was what he had said about plf'ing and saving my ankles. At that moment it felt like the natural thing to do as all I could hear in my head was him telling me to not be afraid to plf, although i've stood up similar landings since then. When I was told not to reach out when docking, I of course reached out to try to dock! Oh one more thing, someone told me not to get fixated on the pump house when landing (Byron, CA)... well things turned out ok as I saw people on the ground waving me away and I realized what was happening. Chalk one up to Heissenberg. Those are perfect perfect examples. It's amazing how easy it is to inadvertantly boobytrap yourself or a friend with improperly couched language. One of the most beneficial things you can do is to learn how to pull the wool over your own eyes. Rather than saying to yourself over and over "Don't reach for grips"... better to repeat.. "Level. Proximity. Grips... Level. Proximity. Grips". It's easy to do. I still inavertantly mis-seed my friends: A common beginner climbout involves swinging their container through the center of the door. A preferred method is to grab the bar, twist 180°, then sorta back out into position. (Less congestion in the door when multiple folk are setting up). Recently I not only TOLD a guy how NOT to swing his container through the center of the mock up door... I SHOWED him how not to do it... twice. Right in front of the ST&A. Thankfully, I didn't think to show the greenie how to NOT scrape his cuttaway pillow off on the door during the climbout... lol. Hey! Well done on recognising and overcoming the seeded target fixation thang. Regardless of how the rest of that jump might've gone, that's a victory you can claim.“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #24 November 25, 2003 Just wanted to add saw the same guy out at the DZ this weekend. He's now renting gear and flying a Navigator 220. He didn't like his landings. He admitted he rushed it because he saw a good deal...Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
