Skydiving Death vs. Alcohol Death.

[Kramer 0]

Let me say that I'm not a huge fan of alcohol. I have nothing against those who drink it (pretty much everyone reading this.. ), it's just not for me. I have alcoholism in my family, and for me, I see a lot more cons than pros to drinking. That being said, I mentioned that I'm not the biggest fan of alcohol in another messageboard I frequent. I said that it's not worth risking my life on. Someone on the messageboard replied to me saying "well, if you're so worry about dying, then why do you skydive?"

Here is my reply to that person, thought you'd like to read (I exaggerated a couple of the details, etc...to help prove my point) :

I know you probably didn't want this big/thorough of a reply, but this is an answer I care passionately about, so you're getting my finest.

You have posed a question I was pretty sure would come eventually: If I'm against drinking alcohol, because it could kill me, then why would I want to jump out of a plane too?

Firstly, let me dawn you with some statistics to brush aside the common stereotypes of skydiving:

One in every 110,000 skydives, the participant dies. That's basically like winning the lottery. Almost all of the people who die from skydiving die because they did something stupid, not because "they're chute didn't open". In order to die because your "chute didn't open", you would have to have something go wrong with your main chute, cutaway to your reserve chute, and have that not open. The odds of a chute just "not opening" altogether are about 1 in 50,000. So you would have to hit 1 in 50,000 two times before you found yourself in a helpless position.

Most people die in skydiving because they do something stupid such as turn too low (if you make any drastic turns under 200 feet, you parachute will spin you into the ground at a very high rate of speed...most of the people who make these mistakes are hot-heads probably trying to show off). Basically, if you don't do anything dumb, it is nearly impossible to die from skydiving based on pure accident. You probably have a better chance dying while playing basketball because of a heart attack, than you do while skydiving.

____

Now, with all that being said, let me answer your question more from my heart than my mind:

If I were to ever die skydiving, I would consider myself one of the luckiest people alive today. To me, there is no better way to go, than to do it while you were doing something you love. You'll be remembered by it forever.

Let's take a look at how much fun each activity is.

Skydiving:


*You get the sensation of flying...most people think it's just falling, but in reality, you can travel up to two miles horizonally during a 60 second freefall.
*You get to live before you die. The highlight of some people's lives is sadly something like "watching the Giants win the 1942 pennant" or "marrying my wife". That's great if that's your thing, but I'd rather die being able to say that the highlight of my life was skydiving. When I'm hanging up there under a parachute...it's like I'm closer to heaven, it's hard to explain.
*Your life is never the same after you do something like skydive. Everything you will ever do for the rest of your life will seem like a piece of cake...if you can jump out of a plane, then you can walk up and talk to this girl, etc, etc, etc. It increases your self-confidence by an incredible sum. Elanor Roosevelt once said, "we gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot."

I could go on forever there, but you get the point.

Alcohol:

*It makes you partially lose control of yourself, and your actions. Which to some, is a nice sensation...I'm a control freak, so it's not a sensation for me.
*It might help you get laid by someone who would not normally have sex with you.
*You might have a really good time at a party, and make a lot of drinking buddies.
*You might wake up the next morning and not remember anything of the "fun" you had the night before.
*You might get arrested for public intoxication, contributing to a minor's intoxication, driving while under the influence of alcohol, or public disturbance.
*You might become dependant on alcohol and lose your job, family, and friends. (I've watched it happen to my uncle).
*You might decide to drive your car in your clouded state, and kill a family of four on their way to church early Sunday morning.
*You might decide to do something that you would not have done if you were sober, then have the regret of your actions to live with.
*You might decide to drive your car in your clouded state, and kill yourself.

To me, comparing with drinking alcohol with skydiving is bogus. If you told me right this second that I will die at the age of 25 while skydiving, I wouldn't flinch a muscle...if it's my time to go, then what better way could I go? If you were to tell me right this second that I will die at the age of 25 because a drunk driver will hit me in a head-on collision...I'd probably cry myself to sleep tonight...that's not how I want to die.

There is a saying, "All people who live, die. But, not all people who die have lived." Have people who died from alcohol poisening or liver cancer really lived life? People who die while skydiving understand the beauty and wonder of this world more than any other group of people. A skydiver once said, "we who fly do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet."

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[skydyvr 0]

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One in every 110,000 skydives, the participant dies.

Where did you get that number?

ZZ says it is 1:42,000, so I am just curious.

. . =(_8^(1)

[ripper0289 0]

I am pretty familiar with addiction, both to alcohol and to narcotics, I've done some work on a rehab unit in a hospital I worked at. Death from alcohol usually doesn't come until after you've caused a tremendous amount of pain to everyone close to you, be it from the lying or the stealing or wondering if you're coming home or if you've taken your car off a bridge. Addictions like that cause way more harm than a bad landing ever could. I applaude your decision to stay away from alcohol, it's the best thing you can do with a family history. And yes, I've been down that road, not with alcohol, but with pain killers.
Skydiving MAY kill you, true, but alcohol WILL kill the alcoholic, and cause immense and long lasting pain to everyone close to you.

[Blahr 0]

I AM an alcoholic. I've been sober for 8 years.

Wouldnt have it any other way. Alcohol sucks and what it did to my life sucks. Partly BECAUSE I'm an alcoholic.
Alcohol is just ONE of the things I've had to deal with in my life. Without the need to deal with Alcohol, I wouldnt have had to deal with all the other shit too.
Because of the fact that I have dealt with ALL that stuff, my life rocks now!

I'd add a longer reply since I have a lot on this subject that I could asay, but I'm GOIN SKYDIVING and I gotta hit the road :-) Its a 2 hour drive and I wanna be there ASAP

Oh yeah let me add one last thing. You dont have to be an alcoholic or know any to know how stupid that question was. You only need a brain and to use it for a half a second :-)

Drinking is about dying. Skydiving is about living. They couldnt be more different.

[tombuch 0]

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One in every 110,000 skydives, the participant dies.

Where did you get that number?

ZZ says it is 1:42,000, so I am just curious.

The fatality rate expressed in terms of JUMPS is a tough number to verify. It requires that we know how many fatalities there were over a given period, and also how many jumps were made. We do know how many fatalities there are, but jump numbers are estimates based on drop zone, equipment manufacturer, and jumper reports compiled by USPA and FAI.

The best number I was able to come up with was a fatality rate of 1:70,130 jumps as reported by USPA for the year 2000. There were 32 fatalities reported that year with an estimated 2, 244,165 domestic skydives.

Data reported by FAI varies considerably, but numbers tend to be in the 1:70,000 - 1:100,000 range.

The FAA used a TANDEM fatality rate between 1991 and 1996 of 1:83,838 to justify removing the tandem exemption in part 105 and making tandem a regular part of the regulation. The FAA data reported by the manufacturers showed tandem risk was pretty much in line with the risk of regular student jumps at the time. Tandem fatality rates have decreased considerably in the years since those numbers were generated.

So, based on my research, the best answer would be between the number you have from ZZ, and the number reported by Kramer.

The other easy number to generate is fatalities based on USPA members. Domestic fatalities between 1991 and 2000 averaged 32.8, while USPA membership for those same years averaged 29,646.6. So, using those 10 year averages yields a fatality rate of 1:903 members. The numbers for the year 2000 are actually much better, with 34,217 members and 32 fatalities, yielding a fatality rate of 1:1,069 members. If we graph the ten year data we see the fatality numbers bouncing up and down while USPA membership over the period shows a steep and consistent climb, so the data for the year 2000 are probably a good reflection of current risk levels.

If we look closely at those numbers we can identify about 14-16 percent as student issues, and some of those students are not USPA members. Likewise, most of the actual people making jumps each year are students. The USPA estimates that about 300,000 people make at least one jump in the USA each year, but with only about 34,000 members of the organization it's pretty clear most of the participants are students. With that said, at my busy turbine drop zone students only take about 10-20 percent of the slots, so while most participants are single visit students, most jumps are made by USPA members.

Risk is a confusing issue, but one that interests most jumpers and students. It's covered well in Parachuting: The Skydivers Handbook and my book, JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

-tom buchanan

Tom Buchanan
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[riggerrob 643]

Clean and sober almost 8 years.

[catfishhunter 2]

The one thing I did not expect to find when I took up skydiving was the number of folks that where in recovery,and how many probably should be

When I first started to jump and begun to learn the beer rules and "heard" of the drop zone parties and such I was worried that my being a recovering addict might allienate me in some way. As I shared some of my skydiving experiances with my freinds and "family" in recovery they where worried about the enviroment I was subjecting myself to. Being the person I am it wasn't long before everyone at the dropzone knew I was an addict , having a BIG NA tattoo on my arm probably gave it away

It wasn't long before all the others in recovery began to introducve themselves to me. I have also had the opprotunity to share my story with others who think they might have a problem and let them know there is a way out and they are not alone.

Skydiving by it's very nature is a draw for those with addictive personallity's. So it shouldn't have been a surprise how many skydivers are in recovery.

I can say knowing I was with other members of my "family" sure made it easier to feel part of my new skydiving family!

I have no issue with those that can have a beer or two and drink responsiblly. I just can't do it. I'm allergic to Alcohol, I break out in cops every time

Blue Skies!

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Kramer 0]

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Drinking is about dying. Skydiving is about living. They couldnt be more different.

Amen.

Yeah, I wasn't terribly sure about the average death rate. I had heard 110,000 float around at the DZ before, so I threw it out there. I wasn't terribly worried about being 100% accurate on that number, 'cause the guy I was writing to probably doesn't care anyway. I more wanted to say what was in my heart, not my mind. Thanks for the correction though...now I know what's goin on.

As for blahr, catfishhunter, and riggerrob, I have nothing but the upmost respect for you and your sobriety of 8 years...congratulations, that's nothing to take lightely.

I need to get you guys to influence my uncle a bit.

Blue skies, all.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[skymick 0]

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If I were to ever die skydiving, I would consider myself one of the luckiest people alive today

Is it just me or does the above quote seem just not quite right??

[winsor 236]

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Clean and sober almost 8 years.

1987-07-15 12:15

[Kramer 0]

Hahha...I can see where you'd think that.

I guess what I should've said was: "I'm going to die eventually, if it happened while I was skydiving, I would be very grateful that I could go out doing something I love".

There ya go

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[JoeyRamone 0]

Skydiving by it's very nature is a draw for those with addictive personallity's. So it shouldn't have been a surprise how many skydivers are in recovery.
***

There is also a lot of drug use and hard core drinkers at DZ'S across America. I think "Beer Rules" are the lamest thing i have ever heard of.

Beer rule send out the wrong idea about skydiving.

You make your first jump, buy beer
You have a cut away, Buy beer
You have a mal, buy beer
You fuck the DZ, owners wife, Buy beer.


Most of the people get so drunk the cant remember why they bought beer.
Lame Lame lame...

[jmpnkramer 0]

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Most people die in skydiving because they do something stupid such as turn too low (if you make any drastic turns under 200 feet, you parachute will spin you into the ground at a very high rate of speed...most of the people who make these mistakes are hot-heads probably trying to show off).

At 5-Jumps and having acquired Zero Free-Fall time, how can you justify this statement. You know nothing about the sport except that of which you have read. Do you believe everything you read or see on the television?

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Basically, if you don't do anything dumb, it is nearly impossible to die from skydiving based on pure accident.

So let me get this straight,

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NO ONE

dies in skydiving from pure accident? Once again you are making a statment based on something you barley know about.

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I will die at the age of 25 while skydiving, I wouldn't flinch a muscle...if it's my time to go, then what better way could I go? If you were to tell me right this second that I will die at the age of 25 because a drunk driver will hit me in a head-on collision...I'd probably cry myself to sleep tonight...that's not how I want to die.

So dying at the hands of someone else while skydiving would not bother you? Is a car wreck not considered an accident?

If it is your time to go the decision of how the deed is done does not belong to you.

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"I'm going to die eventually, if it happened while I was skydiving, I would be very grateful that I could go out doing something I love".

Then by your own admission you would be "Stupid" or "Dumb", because no one dies in the sport because of an accident. Is that how you want to be remembered.?

I must fall under the stupid or dumb category then because when I had my severe accident and made the decision that I was too low to cut-away I was stupid for not trying. I was also dumb for trying to get away from the main landing area so that I would not hit anyone else.

Before you bestow all of this great knowledge on us about the sport of skydiving you might want to actually stick with it, transition to freefall, and get some time & travel in the sport. I have been in the sport for over 10 years and I still do not profess to be an expert. I am always learning and taking in new things from those senior to me and even some who are not.

The fact that you do not drink alcohol is great. There is definitely nothing wrong with that at all. I am just saying that you should not make certain statements about something you know nothing about. To classify all deaths in the sport as "DUMB" or "STUPID" shows just how uneducated you are about Skydiving.

Be Careful!

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Have you ever noticed that "NO ONE wants to LIVE more than a skydiver!"?...

_________________________________________

[billvon 2,991]

>Basically, if you don't do anything dumb, it is nearly impossible to
>die from skydiving based on pure accident.

>So let me get this straight, NO ONE dies in skydiving from pure
>accident? Once again you are making a statment based on
> something you barley know about.

Well, he didn't say that. He said it's nearly impossible. In any given year, 90-95% of the fatalities are caused by people doing something stupid. The remainder (i.e. double malfunctions) are pretty rare.

[Kramer 0]

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(I may have slightly exaggerated a couple of the details, etc...to help prove my point)

Jmpnkramer, I respect your opinion and knowledge, so I'm not going to try to defend myself too righteously here, but I did say in the post that I wasn't terribly accurate about things. I was quickly trying to get my point across to the person I was posting to, and didn't take up too much time to look up too many facts.

I think making a comment such as "its nearly impossible to die from skydiving based on pure accident" isn't terribly inaccurate at all. Most people who die while skydiving make a mistake at some point during the jump that costs them their life, how many people do you hear of that die simply because they had a double baglock malfunction? It just doesn't happen...

I read your post, and learned from it...just don't be quite as quick to bite my head off next time, I know I've only made 5 jumps, but I've read about a dozen books on skydiving, spent countless hours hanging out at the DZ, and ask a lot of questions to learn as much as I can. The only reason I have 5 jumps is because I'm a poor college kid....number of jumps does not necessarily equal knowledge of the sport. So sure, I know nothing compared to you, but I know more than probably most anyone out there with only 5 jumps, and maybe more than a decent number of people with 20-30 jumps. I'm obsessed with learning, and I'm obsessed with learning about skydiving. I've aquired a bit of knowledge about the sport in the few months I've been interested in it, and I try to be very responsible with that knowledge, so don't be hatin so much...

G'day and blue skies.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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if you make any drastic turns under 200 feet, you parachute will spin you into the ground at a very high rate of speed...

um, try again. This is simply not true. swoopers are in 'drastic' turns, aren't they? You can recover from a drastic turn by flattening it out with opposite toggle, can't you? I'm not an expert, either. I only have 70 jumps and that aint shit. But, I think that making statements like these is asking for it.

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most of the people who make these mistakes are hot-heads probably trying to show off).

Where do you get this from? Most of the deaths I see are not experienced hot-headed swoopers, but rather people who make simple mistakes, or decide too late to turn, or hit someone else under canopy because they were unaware of their surroundings. Anything can happen to anyone. You cannot classify that most of the deaths related to this sport are from show offs.

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Basically, if you don't do anything dumb, it is nearly impossible to die from skydiving based on pure accident.

And, know that you have no idea how you'll react to a given situation until it occurs. So, doing something 'dumb' is not that far fetched. Also, sometimes things are unavoidable. What if someone crashes into you and collapses your canopy at 75 feet? Guess what, you didn't have to be doing anything dumb for this to happen. Other peoples stupidity CAN kill you.

Cheers (er, or not) to your not drinking! I can't say I don't drink, but I most certainly would not if there were alcoholism in my family. Take care, read lots, and do more skydives! :D

Angela.

[EricaH 0]

Just be careful. There are a number that have died because someone else did something to them which caused an innocent's demise.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Tonedog1980 0]

Well I got to add my two senses in on this one lol. Just read my sign and you will know what I think. But I love both these things lol. Drinking helps me relax at the end of a hard day of work, help loosen me and my friends up so we can have a good time, instead of sitting around like a bunch of stiffs. I'm NOT saying that peeps that don't drink are stiffs, I'm just saying me and my friends are a bunch of stiffs when we don't drink. Maybe that is considered being dependent on it but hey who cares, I like depending on my Budweiser lol. But I will tell you this, there is no way you can compare dieing skydiving to dieing for something related to drinking. If I ever died drinking and driving that would suck. I probably wouldn't even know it happened until I was taking to the big man upstairs. LOL and it would suck to have a hang over in heaven lol. I know exactly what you mean though about being up there feels like being close to God. I swear I say that same thing. Skydiving frees your body, mind, and soul. I can't live without it now. It is burnt into my character. Also if I ever die skydiving then rock on. When I get to the pearly gates and Christ says is there anything you regret not doing, I will be able to say NO without a dought. It feels like I am at the ends of the earth when I'm up there. Just like you said it is hard to explain, but I'm sure I don't need to explain that feeling to anyone on here lol. But anyways if you don't drink cause you don't want it to kill you then that is cool. Just make sure you don't cut yourself short on living life because of how other people handle it or what others say about it. That wouldn't be unfair to you. There is nothing like a hard day at work then to come home and pop open a ice cold Bud, or to share one with a friend in my opinion. And hey if I do die from the effects of alcohol then so be it. Like you said if it is my time to go it is my time to go. Regardless of what I die from, obviously that is what I was supposed to die from. The only real negative thing I see about drinking is the fact that you can kill someone else. That would suck because if it happened to you then it is totally out of your hands. You would have done nothing wrong and just been a victim of circumstance. You get what I mean? But also it is a ton of fun, after you are done skydiving, to sit back with your buddies and get totally hammered and just have a good time. People try to tell me I am adrenalin junky, and I just say no, I only have one life to live, and I am going to do what I want. Like I said, I don't want to get to heaven and have anything I regret not doing. If I am guilty of anything it is being a thrill junky lol. Ok enough of my opinion. LOL I think this is a little more then my two sense but you can keep the change lol.

Why live your life only to get to death safely? SKYDIVE!

[Tonedog1980 0]

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I must fall under the stupid or dumb category then because when I had my severe accident and made the decision that I was too low to cut-away I was stupid for not trying. I was also dumb for trying to get away from the main landing area so that I would not hit anyone else.

DUDE what happened?!?!?!? You got me interrested in your accident now. If you don't like to talk about it that is kewl but if it doesn't bother you would you mind posting it in inccodents? I like to hear these stories to help me know what to do if it ever happens to me. And no I don't think you are stupid for this. Actually that is a pretty noble thing to do. Trying to get away from the DZ so you wouldn't hit anyone else. Not many people would have thought of that in that situation. Glad you made it out alive though, but sorry for the troubles it probably caused you.

Why live your life only to get to death safely? SKYDIVE!

[jmpnkramer 0]

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I was quickly trying to get my point across to the person I was posting to, and didn't take up too much time to look up too many facts.

First I did not see the post of the person you were trying to get a point across to.

Second I am not doubting your numbers. I disagree with some of the assumptions made about why people die skydiving. You have not travelled around to severalk DZ's to see how they operate and see how different people do things.

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"its nearly impossible to die from skydiving based on pure accident" isn't terribly inaccurate at all.

Here again you have not been in the sport long enough to justify that statement. I know of a guy who tore his aorta on a hard opening but did not realize it and died at home. An Outstanding Female Organizer friend of mine died when she was knocked out in Free-Fall. I could go on. The main thing is that some of these things may not be in books. It is something you have to be around the sport for awhile to see.

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I've read about a dozen books on skydiving, spent countless hours hanging out at the DZ, and ask a lot of questions to learn as much as I can.

These are all good things. The only problem is that you categorized and made statements which could only be made by actually being in the sport and seeing them first hand.

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number of jumps does not necessarily equal knowledge of the sport.

I agree. You can gain jump numbers at any point but time in the sport does matter and that is something which you do not have.

I am not bitting your head off. I have lost some good buds in both sport skydiving and military jumping. There are many unusual things that can happen.

I do not hate. I am just pointing out that you need to gain time in the sport. It has nothing to do with jump numbers.

Take it easy and study hard.

Laters,

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[jmpnkramer 0]

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90-95% of the fatalities are caused by people doing something stupid. The remainder (i.e. double malfunctions) are pretty rare.

I am not going to do number crunching. Basically though people make mistakes.

Some of it is lack of experience or instruction. Are these people to be considered stupid because they are not informed?

I had a guy hit me at Quincy in '99' under canopy. I was flying a straight in approach. If I would have died could that be construed as stupid on my part?

Swoopers push the limits of the canopy. Is this stupid? They are only trying to do a different aspect of the sport. Unfortunately it injures them severely or kills them.

The bottom line is that we are all human and make mistakes. What we see as stupid might just be an uniformed or uncurrent skydiver. The sad point is that they are out there and we need to try and identify them.


Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[velo90 0]

Maybe Kramer ( not jmpnkramer) used the words stupid and dumb because as a student he hears these words being used all the time.
"Kramer! how could you so stupid as to turn that low"
"Kramer! That was a pretty dumb thing to do..."
I have heard many times students being called stupid and dumb when the real problem is.... well may some are stupid and dumb

Don't forget, a lot of people think we are stupid and dumb even when it all goes right!

[Partorg 0]

There is an old saying in Russian. If you do not drink you are sick or trader. I wish my English writing abilities would let me response on any negativity that you made up about alcohol. It's not an alcohol fault that you can not control youself, it's your own weakness, selfishness and luxury of not taking responsibility for your personal actions. Stop blaming materialistic objects for your own mistakes.
Drink and enjoy you life. But measure IT. If you do not know how to do that come to TSP , NC .....I am willing to work with your asses

I'll see you when I see you and if I don't see you.........Hell with you.

[billvon 2,991]

>Some of it is lack of experience or instruction. Are these people to
>be considered stupid because they are not informed?

No. The person isn't necessarily stupid, what they did was stupid. Turning hard at 50 feet is a stupid thing to do because it will very likely kill you. Education can help prevent such stupid mistakes.

>I had a guy hit me at Quincy in '99' under canopy. I was flying a
> straight in approach. If I would have died could that be construed as
> stupid on my part?

It would have been yet another case of pilot error on the part of two people. It takes two to collide. One might bear more responsibility than the other, but both people are responsible for avoiding other traffic.

>Swoopers push the limits of the canopy. Is this stupid? They are only
> trying to do a different aspect of the sport. Unfortunately it injures
> them severely or kills them.

If they have the skill to do so - then no. If they hook too low and break their necks, then yes, that was pilot error.

>The bottom line is that we are all human and make mistakes. What
> we see as stupid might just be an uniformed or uncurrent skydiver.

Of course; pilot error is the cause of 90-95% of the fatalities out there. Gravity doesn't care if you're well informed or not; if you do something stupid you may get killed, even if you did it because you just plain never learned to flat turn (for example.)