feagajk 0 #1 October 25, 2003 It was a great sunny afternoon here today so I decided to run out to the DZ and make a skydive. Right before sunset we get enough people for a sunset load. I decided to do a solo jump and pull high to enjoy the scenery and one of the last warm days of the year. Skydive went well and I pulled at 5,000. Look up and watch the canopy inflate during a comfortable snivel. Canopy looked good so I went to unstow the breaks. The right break unstows fine, but the left did not. I give a few tugs and realize that there is a tension knot of some sort that I wont be able to get out. With 1/2 brakes on the right side it flies straight and level, but enters a moderate rate turn if I let up on the right toggle. I get pointed toward the DZ and take some time to evaluate my options. I decided that with my currency level that I probably shouldnt try and land it . I cut away at 3500 and am under the reserve by 3,000. I watch the main and free bag land and since they were real close I landed the reserve in the peas. I went and found the main, but the free bag and pilot chute somehow disappeared. (Hopefully they turn up in the daylight). Upon inspection of the main it appeared the the toggle was pulled through the brake line stow during deployment and was pulled tight when I pulled on the brakes. Ive made 5 jumps in the last month after a 2 year layoff and I feel that cutting away was the right decision. I probably could have landed the main, but I think there was more risk there than going to the reserve. Good decision? The other issue was how the steering toggle became locked in the first place. It was rental gear so I didnt pack it myself. But as I understand the procedure the excess is looped up through the riser and held in place with the toggle when it is put in the pocket. Its not clear how the toggle got pulled through the loop, but apparently I wasnt the first to cut away from that situation. Anyone else heard of this happening? Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #2 October 25, 2003 I don't have any answers... Just Post Whorin... Had to let you know, since (21 jumps so far) I haven't had to pull red/silver yet... AWESOME JOB, GOOD TO HAVE YOU STILL AROUND! Blue Skies Indeed, JackIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #3 October 25, 2003 It really doesn't matter. If you feel comfortable with your decision, then it was a good one. Cheers, you owe beer.-------Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 October 25, 2003 QuoteJust Post Whorin... Please.... keep the post whoring to TalkBack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #5 October 25, 2003 well, I know it's been said on here a million times, but I'll just repeat: if you don't like what you see, get rid of it. It's as simple as that. You're the one flying the canopy, you're the one that knows your flying skills, you're the one whose ass is on the line. There's no point in having a reserve if you don't use it when you need it. In this case, you examined your options and made a rational decision with plenty of altitude. I say, job well done! Matt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #6 October 25, 2003 Quote Good decision? You aren't hurt, right? Then it was a good decision. You were the one under that canopy and you did what you thought was best. Good job. Not quite sure I understand what you mean by the toggle going up through the loop - instead of just the "tab" being in the stow loop, the wider "handle" part was stuck in the loop? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #7 October 25, 2003 Quote"Ive made 5 jumps in the last month after a 2 year layoff and I feel that cutting away was the right decision. I probably could have landed the main, but I think there was more risk there than going to the reserve. Good decision? Historically people died or suffered major injury because they failed to use their reserve correctly in time...you did the right thing...make no mistake. We jump with two parachutes for a reason. mike----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #8 October 25, 2003 Good goin' Joe, you did well! Nice heads up on getting back into into the 'wind cone' before chopping - you used your spare time well. I hope that the missing gear shows up for you. I'm sure the DZO does too. This one doesn;t sound at all like your fault. I'm somewhat confused about your description about where the slack steering line was stowed. Was it actually looped UPWARDS and into the riser where the rapide links hook to the risers? Did the gear have steel links or Slinks? The reason I ask is becasue this could be a good confirmation post for the gear and rigging/safety page. This problem has come up before with slinks. Let us know if you would, please. Once again, good decision, nice job on 'sport reserve accuracy' totop it all off Dave Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrancoR 0 #9 October 25, 2003 Was the knot similar to the one discussed in this thread? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=470530;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; I don't understand how the knot came into your brake lines. FrancoIf it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #10 October 25, 2003 Similar. Im going back to the DZ now to hunt the free bag... Im gonna bring the digital camera and try to reproduce the knot as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #11 October 25, 2003 You can analyze the situation all you want. The bottom line is; you remaind "heads up" and made a good decision. Anytime there is doubt, you've made your decision (can I clear those power lines? = avoid, Can I fly this? = go to the reserve). Why people have doubts about going to the reserve, I don't know. Packing the main usually takes less than ten minutes. Packing the reserve usually takes an hour & half. Ten minute pack job or hour & half pack job. Easy decision. Reserve repack: $45.00. Rigger's choice of bottle: $25.00 Right decision... priceless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #12 October 25, 2003 Good news. After a brief 3 hour search I found the freebag in a tree about 100 yards from where the main landed. A wasted day, but I saved my self $180 bucks. I think my "good decision" was more prying for information on how to land a canopy in that configuration. After I landed the reserve and told everyone what happened I got a lot of why didnt you try and land it questions. I had no problem saying it was because I didnt feel like I could land the main safetly. I was just wondering the best way to go about it. I didnt get a chance to photograph the knot. Ill try and sketch something up tonight and post it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinjackflash 0 #13 October 25, 2003 Ahhhh, well. Twas a Joke Lisa, just a joke... jjfIt's a gas, gas, gas... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #14 October 25, 2003 Quote Reserve repack: $45.00. Rigger's choice of bottle: $25.00 Right decision... priceless. No charge for repack...was due today anyway! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyros1 0 #15 October 27, 2003 Thats was my 2nd cutaway! I have reacted exactly the same way. After examining the main we made several trials with the excess brake line. It seemed that if the excess brake line was stowed it was easy the toggle to get through it and when you pulled it down then you have a very nice knot. I stow the excess brake line in my risers loop watching to be clear from my S-links. BS Kyros Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmitch31 0 #16 November 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteI think my "good decision" was more prying for information on how to land a canopy in that configuration. Feagajk, I'm no expert, but for the sake of discussion, I'll put in my two cents. I would've landed that sucker... It sounds to me that since you said that you could fly stable and straight when you pulled your right toggle down into half brakes, that basically what you are describing is your left toggle was stuck in half brakes. To me, that's not a terribly difficult situation. Like you said, you could make moderate left turns if you let up your right toggle. So at the very minimum, you still had the capability of flying straight and making moderate left turns. QuoteWith 1/2 brakes on the right side it flies straight and level, but enters a moderate rate turn if I let up on the right toggle. Being able to make moderate left turns alone (with the absence of being able to make right turns) would allow you to position yourself for a landing pattern and follow through with your pattern. The only controllability difference would be that you couldn't flare on landing. That is something I could be comfortable with. For landing, I would pull my right toggle down to where the canopy is basically flying in half brakes, take her down, and PLF. You could even hang onto the left toggle to hold it in place in the unlikely event it might snap loose during your landing. Like I said, for the sake of discussion, and providing the canopy was stable and moderately steerable, I think that is the approach I would have tried. dmitch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flymysky 0 #17 November 4, 2003 I had a similar malfunction on Saturday. I spent 1500' trying to release the caught brakeline and at 2000' I cutaway and had a nice landing under my reserve. I decided that the conditions were not in my favor for landing the main although in better conditions I might have. The wind was gusting and not consistent (direction) and I was over some low hills and powerlines. My wing loading is about 1.6 under the elliptical main and 1.4 under the nice square reserve. I walked away happy with my decision.My candle burns at both ends It will not last the night; But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends - It gives a lovely light. http://www.galaxygear.com.au/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #18 November 4, 2003 Quote After examining the main we made several trials with the excess brake line. It seemed that if the excess brake line was stowed it was easy the toggle to get through it and when you pulled it down then you have a very nice knot. I stow the excess brake line in my risers loop watching to be clear from my S-links. BS Kyros Sorry I havent put pictures up yet, still havent taken any. But, the issue does need addressed! The current consideration at my dz is to not to stow the excess at all and just tuck it carefully in when the risers are stored. After deployment they should just trail behind the risers so it should be easy to make sure they're clear! Thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DutchSkyCam 0 #19 November 4, 2003 QuoteThoughts? I always left the slack of my break lines loose. On my -late- Extreme FX it didn't matter too much, but this year I started jumping a Velocity. This canopy has a lot more slack in the brake setting and at first I just left if flying around. After two messages on the incident forum I decided that I had to do somthing about it. I jump a Mirage G3 and now tuck the slack in on the bottom toggle keeper. I guess every rig has a way of getting the slack out of the way, if not... Talk to a rigger. Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auryn 0 #20 November 4, 2003 QuoteQuote Good decision? You aren't hurt, right? Then it was a good decision. You were the one under that canopy and you did what you thought was best. Good job. Not quite sure I understand what you mean by the toggle going up through the loop - instead of just the "tab" being in the stow loop, the wider "handle" part was stuck in the loop? Im a packer at my dz, and Ive seen this stowing method done before for velcroless toggles... you loop the excess brakeline through the "hole" at the top of the riser and then run the top of the toggle through the loop of brake line to lock it in place. Ive never seen it cause a problem before though, because in theory when you release the brakes you release that loop.. it just contains the excess. Bryan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyros1 0 #21 November 4, 2003 With just tucking and not securing the excess brake line how can you be sure that it will not pass through toggles and create that knot again? For me there are 2 possible solutions: 1. Stow the excess where the manufacturer suggests (try to put it on the correct way) or 2. Stow through my risers loop (watching to be clear from S-links) In any case I wouldnt like to see the excess moving so free around the air BS Kyros Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #22 November 4, 2003 Quote you loop the excess brakeline through the "hole" at the top of the riser and then run the top of the toggle through the loop of brake line to lock it in place. Ive never seen it cause a problem before though, because in theory when you release the brakes you release that loop.. it just contains the excess. Bryan There is enough slack in the line before going through hole in the riser that during deployment part of the line got pulled over the toggle. If you just look at it quickly (likeI did) you might not notice it. Go to realease the brakes and whalla...knot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #23 November 4, 2003 QuoteWith just tucking and not securing the excess brake line how can you be sure that it will not pass through toggles and create that knot again? It would pass through easier, but IMO It would be easier to spot Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feagajk 0 #24 November 10, 2003 The rig that I cut away got back from the rigger on Saturday. First time out another jumper cut away for the same reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auryn 0 #25 November 11, 2003 QuoteQuote you loop the excess brakeline through the "hole" at the top of the riser and then run the top of the toggle through the loop of brake line to lock it in place. Ive never seen it cause a problem before though, because in theory when you release the brakes you release that loop.. it just contains the excess. Bryan There is enough slack in the line before going through hole in the riser that during deployment part of the line got pulled over the toggle. If you just look at it quickly (likeI did) you might not notice it. Go to realease the brakes and whalla...knot excellent post.. I will advise my several customers that want things done this way about this risk. thanks !! Bryan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
