Squeak 17 #1 November 5, 2003 I tried to post this previously so if it comes up 2 times I appologise. OK I just read a post here, where a person got their A & B license and their Coach & Instructor ratings in under a year, and with less than 500 jumps. So my questions is would you feel confident in their ability, with this short a time in the sport. My 2 AFF instructors both had inexcess of 6000 jumps each, I felt comfortable with them and confident in their ability to instruct me. If they had the afore mentions credentials I do not think I would have had the same confidence in them, and probably would not have done the coarse. this in no way implies an inability to do the job. This question is directed at the confidence felt by othersYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #2 November 5, 2003 there has to be something in the fact that this person would not be allowed to instruct shit in the UK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #3 November 5, 2003 I'm temped to say that this is a relative issue. there are people i would have felt confident with when they had 300 jumps, and there are people i wouldn't trust or take instruction from when they have 5000 jumps!=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #4 November 5, 2003 Well, when I went through AFF, I had a friend who had about 300 skydives and I though that he was super experienced. So, back when I was a student, I wouldn't have thought that an instructor having "Only" 500 jumps would be anything to be concerned about. Now, unless I knew the instructor and was very confident in his or her abilities, I wouldn't want my friends going through AFF or doing a tandem with that person. This is not to say that I don't feel that there are people who are able at those jump numbers, but I'd have to know the person. Stay safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #5 November 5, 2003 Quote there has to be something in the fact that this person would not be allowed to instruct shit in the UK Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't it 200 jumps to get your CSI rating in the UK? This person would be more than qualified to get both their coach and CSI Instructor ratings over here. AFF instructors are a different matter of course, requring a minimum of 1000 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 November 5, 2003 You also have to have a minimum of 2 years in the sport and be sponsored by the CCI (somethimes the hardest bit). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #7 November 5, 2003 Hi Squeak, They wouldn't be allowed to do squat here. You need to be a JM for a year before you go on an instructors course and you need a C for a JM, which is 200 dives here, AFF I's require 1000 dives minimum. I have worked with some AFF othersides with lowish numbers, and they've done OK. There are some people who progress faster than others. I'd rather go with a twenty something AFF I with 500 dives than with an 80 something AFF I with 20000 plus dives. Somewhere between those points lies perfection. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #8 November 5, 2003 QuoteYou also have to have a minimum of 2 years in the sport Not necessarily. Application can be made to STC for special permission if short of the required time. See Section 10 (Permissions) Para f in the BPA Safety and Training Comittee Minutes, Thursday 10th August 2000Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #9 November 5, 2003 Happy to stand corrected on the letter of the law... you know its gonna be a damnd unusual case to have a CCI go to those lengths for you though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #10 November 5, 2003 When I went through the AFF cert course 7+ years ago...I had 480 jumps or so, mostly at a turbine DZ so I had a good deal of FF time. There was no doubt in my mind after the course that I was 100% capable of doing my job. I give credit to the evaluators for that...they did more stuff than I can possibly talk about here to shake me during freefall. I am pretty confident that the certification process is a good one and if you don't have what it takes (believe me some of the best skydivers in the world don't) to instruct another person and then stay with them when it gets down and dirty...you don't get your JM with the current process. Another thing I've learned is that jump numbers is not always the best indicator of what kind of skydiver you are. Would you rather have an instructor who has made 500 jumps over a 15 year period or one who has 500 jumps in a 2 year period??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rjf98 0 #11 November 5, 2003 How many that have posted so far have actually gone through the AFF-I course????? If you haven't you don't have anything to base your opinion on. Not that I'm saying it isn't strange for a low time jumper to have the rating (take a look at my profile). My Course director and evaluator made it very plain at the beginning of the course. "If I don't think you could save the life of my wife or son on their first jump... you won't leave here with the rating." Everyone had to start somewhere. Even those instructors with 6000 jumps. At some point they were a nubie instructor doing their first "real" AFF jump. Another question. Would you be more comfortable with an instructor that had 1000 jumps but it was his first instruction jump, or an instructor that had 700 jumps and had 200 instruction jumps??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #12 November 5, 2003 Great minds think alike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #13 November 5, 2003 but you got to take into the fact that.. if an idiot gets there aff rating.. that doesnt change the fact that there still an idiot.. just an idiot with an aff rating... and this does happen...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cruzit 0 #14 November 5, 2003 I didn't say there are no idiots carrying AFF ratings. I'm sure there are. There are plenty of idiots everywhere. But if we eliminate the idiots...who would we hang out with??? For the most part, the AFF cert process weeds out the weak and the ones who just plain can't hang. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites batbex 0 #15 November 5, 2003 Hi, I think its best just to have faith in the teaching system, if this person was good enough they wouldn't have got their rating. Also as an AFF student level one - personnally I was completely clueless, I at no point asked how many jumps my instructor had and if I had and he had answered 500 - I would have been impressed. I would have at no point questioned their ability(the dropzone wouldn't employ them if they were shit - too much possiblity for disaster) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #16 November 5, 2003 Quotebut you got to take into the fact that.. if an idiot gets there aff rating.. that doesnt change the fact that there still an idiot.. just an idiot with an aff rating... and this does happen...... Said idiot must also get hired by a dropzone... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #17 November 5, 2003 QuoteSaid idiot must also get hired by a dropzone... yes this is tru and also said idiot has to find another rated aff instructor willing to go with them on the first few dives.. thank god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #18 November 5, 2003 this is mostly directed to Cruzit and rjf98... Did ya read the last ine of the original post. I'm well aware that most peopl would be capable of doing the job, if they passed their course. The question was directed towards peoples confidence in the instructor, not whether the instructor is able to do it.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #19 November 5, 2003 Quotethis is mostly directed to Cruzit and rjf98... Did ya read the last ine of the original post. I'm well aware that most peopl would be capable of doing the job, if they passed their course. The question was directed towards peoples confidence in the instructor, not whether the instructor is able to do it. In defense of rjf98, he is an excellent instructor. How do I know? We work at the same DZ and share many of the same students. I get good feedback from them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #20 November 5, 2003 i think it is easy to have confidence in somone when your in the "first jump student" situation... i dont think it is very hard to get a students confidence.. because they reallydont know any way otherwise. exept this guy is taking them up.... now me on the other hand is easy for for to have confidence or even easier not to have confidence in another instructor because i have the experiance.... wich in turn works for the student.... if i dont have confidence in another instructor then im not going up with them.... but in all reality if the student for some reason does not have confidence in there instructor or instructors .. then by all means they should ask for different instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #21 November 6, 2003 you're missing the point, this has never been a question of ability When I did my AFF8 I was with an instructor that I had very little confidence in, he had quite a few thousand jumps, but I'd watched me around the DZ for a wile and didn't have much faith in him. I went up with him and did AFF 8 mostly because its a guided solo, and I had confidence in MEYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #22 November 6, 2003 Quoteyou're missing the point, this has never been a question of ability How can you have confidence in someone who has no ability nor skill? QuoteSo my questions is would you feel confident in their ability, with this short a time in the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #23 November 6, 2003 QuoteQuoteyou're missing the point, this has never been a question of ability How can you have confidence in someone who has no ability nor skill? well if they're an instructor they would supposedly haveskill. Check out the previous post of mine I edited it. That guy a ton of skil, but what he didn't have was my confidence. The two things are not necassarily linked.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cruzit 0 #24 November 6, 2003 Here's the thing...and this is not a knock directed at most students. But most don't have the knowledge to make an informed enough decision as to what a lot of experience is. When I was a student...500 jumps sounded like a lot. It sounds as if you are saying that if you knew then what you know now, you wouldn't have skydived with the instructor who had 500 jumps. My point is that most students have confidence in their instructors because it doesn't occur to them to do otherwise. When I began JMing I didn't go around telling my students how many jumps I had, not because I thought they would be scared that I had so few, but because it is arrogant to spew jump numbers to a newbie. I will tell them if they ask...but I've never, ever, had one say..."No way....you don't have enough experience for me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #25 November 6, 2003 Hey Squeak, Hell Yeah, I got my A, B, C, D Coach and AFF rating in 1 month. It may sound scary and I only had 400 jumps when I got my rating. But I also had 6 years in the sport as a packer, manifestor, flew camera, competed on 2 teams at Nationals and was trained by a highly skilled professional who I thought was one of the best skydivers around. Skill is in the eye of the beholder. If you got your rating in the first place, you had to be able to meet the standard. If you question the ability of the individual based on experience, it is probably better than to look at the standard.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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marks 0 #13 November 5, 2003 but you got to take into the fact that.. if an idiot gets there aff rating.. that doesnt change the fact that there still an idiot.. just an idiot with an aff rating... and this does happen...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #14 November 5, 2003 I didn't say there are no idiots carrying AFF ratings. I'm sure there are. There are plenty of idiots everywhere. But if we eliminate the idiots...who would we hang out with??? For the most part, the AFF cert process weeds out the weak and the ones who just plain can't hang. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batbex 0 #15 November 5, 2003 Hi, I think its best just to have faith in the teaching system, if this person was good enough they wouldn't have got their rating. Also as an AFF student level one - personnally I was completely clueless, I at no point asked how many jumps my instructor had and if I had and he had answered 500 - I would have been impressed. I would have at no point questioned their ability(the dropzone wouldn't employ them if they were shit - too much possiblity for disaster) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #16 November 5, 2003 Quotebut you got to take into the fact that.. if an idiot gets there aff rating.. that doesnt change the fact that there still an idiot.. just an idiot with an aff rating... and this does happen...... Said idiot must also get hired by a dropzone... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #17 November 5, 2003 QuoteSaid idiot must also get hired by a dropzone... yes this is tru and also said idiot has to find another rated aff instructor willing to go with them on the first few dives.. thank god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #18 November 5, 2003 this is mostly directed to Cruzit and rjf98... Did ya read the last ine of the original post. I'm well aware that most peopl would be capable of doing the job, if they passed their course. The question was directed towards peoples confidence in the instructor, not whether the instructor is able to do it.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #19 November 5, 2003 Quotethis is mostly directed to Cruzit and rjf98... Did ya read the last ine of the original post. I'm well aware that most peopl would be capable of doing the job, if they passed their course. The question was directed towards peoples confidence in the instructor, not whether the instructor is able to do it. In defense of rjf98, he is an excellent instructor. How do I know? We work at the same DZ and share many of the same students. I get good feedback from them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #20 November 5, 2003 i think it is easy to have confidence in somone when your in the "first jump student" situation... i dont think it is very hard to get a students confidence.. because they reallydont know any way otherwise. exept this guy is taking them up.... now me on the other hand is easy for for to have confidence or even easier not to have confidence in another instructor because i have the experiance.... wich in turn works for the student.... if i dont have confidence in another instructor then im not going up with them.... but in all reality if the student for some reason does not have confidence in there instructor or instructors .. then by all means they should ask for different instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #21 November 6, 2003 you're missing the point, this has never been a question of ability When I did my AFF8 I was with an instructor that I had very little confidence in, he had quite a few thousand jumps, but I'd watched me around the DZ for a wile and didn't have much faith in him. I went up with him and did AFF 8 mostly because its a guided solo, and I had confidence in MEYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #22 November 6, 2003 Quoteyou're missing the point, this has never been a question of ability How can you have confidence in someone who has no ability nor skill? QuoteSo my questions is would you feel confident in their ability, with this short a time in the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #23 November 6, 2003 QuoteQuoteyou're missing the point, this has never been a question of ability How can you have confidence in someone who has no ability nor skill? well if they're an instructor they would supposedly haveskill. Check out the previous post of mine I edited it. That guy a ton of skil, but what he didn't have was my confidence. The two things are not necassarily linked.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #24 November 6, 2003 Here's the thing...and this is not a knock directed at most students. But most don't have the knowledge to make an informed enough decision as to what a lot of experience is. When I was a student...500 jumps sounded like a lot. It sounds as if you are saying that if you knew then what you know now, you wouldn't have skydived with the instructor who had 500 jumps. My point is that most students have confidence in their instructors because it doesn't occur to them to do otherwise. When I began JMing I didn't go around telling my students how many jumps I had, not because I thought they would be scared that I had so few, but because it is arrogant to spew jump numbers to a newbie. I will tell them if they ask...but I've never, ever, had one say..."No way....you don't have enough experience for me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #25 November 6, 2003 Hey Squeak, Hell Yeah, I got my A, B, C, D Coach and AFF rating in 1 month. It may sound scary and I only had 400 jumps when I got my rating. But I also had 6 years in the sport as a packer, manifestor, flew camera, competed on 2 teams at Nationals and was trained by a highly skilled professional who I thought was one of the best skydivers around. Skill is in the eye of the beholder. If you got your rating in the first place, you had to be able to meet the standard. If you question the ability of the individual based on experience, it is probably better than to look at the standard.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
