Small or aggressive canopy, no experience, grounded.

[imdskydiver 0]

Note to myself :
never visit this DZ .

[AggieDave 6]

I wasn't trying to diss the DZ. Honestly, I think its a great policy. I just think there should always be a way to test out of those sort of blanket rule sets for percieved skill.

It does and probably can give a false sense of safety, though, since someone can (and people have) died under a 1:1 wingloading. Now, we all know that that is not the rule, it is the exception, but it has, and most likely will, happen again.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Fast 0]

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Damn, I couldn't jump there...

Is there the ability to prove your ability at your wingloading to unground yourself?

Me either. I'm .1 over what they allow.

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If you have an A license, but have 7000 jumps, you will only be allowed to jump up to the 25 jump wing load. And I will scold you as to why you haven't paid the $20.00 for your D license.

wow harsh... Not picking on your DZ I'm glad to see that you are following something, to help people stay safe.

So, my question is do many DZs have rules like this? I guess its something to keep in mind when I travel.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[billvon 3,008]

>On my home dropzone owners do not force anyone.

I very much doubt that. I would doubt they'd let anyone jump a single canopy rig, or jump a standard rig with a Stiletto 135 with no training whatsoever, or jump without a rig but with a wingsuit. Every DZ I've ever been to has some basic rules.

[shmali 0]

I wasn't actually around when it happened but one of my instructors (way back when) was grounded at our home dz when he downsized to a 103(don't know canopy type) he pretty much took his wingloading from 1.1 - 1.6 . They refused to let him jump it. Cause the the team to move dz's until he went down to florida and took a canopy class for a bit and got a letter of proficiency for the canopy. They let him jump it after that.

Pineappe Death Juice, If you have to ask you'd rather not know!

[billvon 3,008]

>I know you are not stating that because they limit wingloading, they
>will be safer. This must be a typo.

What makes a DZ safe or unsafe is made up of many variables - the prevailing attitude, the amount new jumpers listen, the amount of advice experienced jumpers give, the care the DZO applies to aircraft maintenance, and yes, even rules that say what you can and can't do. One of those rules may well be a wingloading limit. At many places they are informal - when I was an S+TA I'd know when someone was on a canopy they couldn't handle. Other places have more formal rules. All of these things make up a safe drop zone.

So yes, having rules may well make a DZ safer. Every DZ out there has rules of one form or another. Many of them follow USPA BSR's, and those were written in blood. Many others add their own, like AAD usage or wing loading limits.

[Partorg 0]

Come and try

I'll see you when I see you and if I don't see you.........Hell with you.

[rjf98 0]

At first glance I liked this table. I think an enforcement at the local level is where it is at. That is a community of skydivers that want those regulations. Much harder to swallow in the form of BSRs (that is generally an American thing for those of you outside the states).

I wonder. Could a table like this open up the DZ to a lawsuit. Say someone splashes in a breaks his femer at the 50 Jump limit. "well the DZ has this table and they said that it was safe to jump at this wingloading once I had 50 jumps." Not saying it's right, just asking what everyone thinks.

[Jimbo 0]

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well the DZ has this table and they said that it was safe to jump at this wingloading once I had 50 jumps.

I would never imagine that such a chart implied that a particular wingloading was safe, only that that was the maximum wingloading that the DZ would allow somone to jump. I just don't see the connection to wingload X means you'll never get hurt.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rjf98 0]

Yes... you're responsible.

[Partorg 0]

Agree

I'll see you when I see you and if I don't see you.........Hell with you.

[webracer 0]

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I very much doubt that. I would doubt they'd let anyone jump a single canopy rig, or jump a standard rig with a Stiletto 135 with no training whatsoever, or jump without a rig but with a wingsuit. Every DZ I've ever been to has some basic rules.

This is accurate. On every dz I have been involved with, there are standards, although they are not explicitly stated. As people choose gear, they seek advice from reputable skydivers. When they stop seeking advice, if they start making poor decisions, there is no shortage of people to make comments on that. (wait, is there such a thing as a reputable skydiver?)
If someone goes way off the deepend, they are stopped. It is, however, case by case. As a general rule, the canopy selection process is guided by the jumping public through peer pressure. Some slip through the cracks, but not many. Even if someone does slip through, it isn't for long, as when you see their skills (or lack thereof), you intervene with at least some advice.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[SkyPsycho 0]

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here is a link to the chart that is enforced at my dz and as far as kai2k1 sayin "If they want everyone jumping manta 288's thats their decision." That is by far the case and of course im pretty sure you were being sarcastic but i jump a stiletto 135 my dad jumps a stiletto 107 adn we have a velocity 111 adn we also have a alpha 94 at our dz just as long as they are in accordance with teh chart.


http://skydivecoastalcarolinas.com/wing%20loading.htm

there is the chart that we go by and it has run pretty smoothly with that chart except for when it was first being enforced other than that we have had no problem with people abiding by that and if they cant jump their canopy other jumpers will more than likely let them borrow a rig for no charge adn if the person chooses to use a student rig i believe the charge is 15 to 25 dollars

chart isnt bad, jump numbers to wingloading, but i totally disagree with the license requirement along with the jump numbers.........why should the license matter if the numbers are there along with currency which im sure is probably checked......


scolded as to why ya didnt pay 20 bucks for a d license........thats absurd

_______________________________
HK MP5SD.........silence is golden

[kelpdiver 2]

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I wonder. Could a table like this open up the DZ to a lawsuit. Say someone splashes in a breaks his femer at the 50 Jump limit. "well the DZ has this table and they said that it was safe to jump at this wingloading once I had 50 jumps."

Legally once you set guidelines you are becoming responsible for them being reasonable ones. But these would be seen as safe to too safe by most skydivers, so I don't think they're at risk. And we are talking about skydiving, the cliche for discussion of assumption of risk.

I'm actually more concerned about how it is implemented - to the .01? The last thing you want to see is jumpers dehydrating themselves or wearing less clothing/shoeware to shave that last 2 pounds to make a weight limit. Better instead to make this chart a very strong guideline, and allow a .05 - .1 fudge factor for those you know. (otherwise, might be losing business during the holiday season of eating!)

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Right now, I don't see any conflict; this is just one DZ and they're a long way away from a lost of us. In the future there could be a lot more DZs that do this, to the point lots of us begin to care. But by then we can just have more jumps and/or higher licenses.

There are other DZ's that have wingloading restrictions, some are much more restrictive than this DZ. I think this will happen more and more. Ironic that these restrictions are much more severe than what was proposed here on DZ.com and was shot down as being too restrictive, not enough data to support, the process to becoming a BSR, etc. Looks like it could end up being much more restrictive and variable from DZ to DZ than the proposed BSR would have been.

Derek

[jsaxton 0]

Uh, those are FAA rules and would get the pilots ticket pulled.

[jsaxton 0]

oops, except for jumping with no training.....

[Hooknswoop 19]

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----"Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes." -Mahatma Gandhi ----

"Too much freedom is not worth having if you don't live long enough to enjoy it after making a mistake."- Derek

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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----"Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes." -Mahatma Gandhi ----

"Too much freedom is not worth having if you don't live long enough to enjoy it after making a mistake."- Derek

"If fear of dying plagues ones life, then life it not worth living." - Angela.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I think that a given dz has every right to enforce any rules they see fit; they can discriminate, if they please, and are absolutely allowed to enforce certain rules wrecklessly upon particular individuals and not others, even if there is no cause for such discrimination based on unsafe canopy flight or landings.

Furthermore, I think that should the dz feel that a particular person is unfit to fly a particular canopy, regardless of whether they've had problems on it or not, they have every right to call all dzs in the area/state/region and tell them that the jumper in question is unsafe to jump said canopy, even if they have no record of said jumper being unsafe.

of course, these are just my humble opinions. Have a safe day and make sure you all fly big boat-like canopies that bore the crap out of ya, ok? NEVER push the envelope!

Angela.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Uh, those are FAA rules and would get the pilots ticket pulled.

The only one Bill V mentioned that is an FAR is aircraft maintenance.

Derek

[marks 0]

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----"Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes." -Mahatma Gandhi ----

"Too much freedom is not worth having if you don't live long enough to enjoy it after making a mistake."- Derek

thereis a happy medium here that we should all respect..

[Hooknswoop 19]

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"If fear of dying plagues ones life, then life it not worth living." - Angela.

I completely agree.

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thereis a happy medium here that we should all respect..

Exactly. Wing loading limits don't take away freedom unnecessarily any more than minimum pull altitudes do. You can push the edge without being stupid about it. Unfortunately too many newer jumpers don't know what they don't know ("I am going to wait until I have 30 jumps before lurking a tandem". "I have 50 jumps and want a Stiletto 107 loaded at 1.5:1", etc.).

Anyone that knows me knows I have pushed my share of limits. I also (for the most part) have done it very carefully and without injury.

Derek

[ianmdrennan 2]

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of course, these are just my humble opinions. Have a safe day and make sure you all fly big boat-like canopies that bore the crap out of ya, ok? NEVER push the envelope!

You'll find a fair amount of us who believe in trying to keep people like you alive have high wingloadings. Difference is that we didn't wake up and day and say "hmmm lets push the envelope", instead we honed our skills and push the envelope a little more every day as our skills progress.

One day you'll understand this concept.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team