Small or aggressive canopy, no experience, grounded.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I agree with you. However, when one speaks about something in a vague manor, it is difficult to pin point what they intended. Your quote could've meant anything, as could have mine; although i'd venture to say that neither of them was actually meant to be an extreme.

Stay safe:)
angela.

[Michele 1]

Wow, Angela....

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Have a safe day and make sure you all fly big boat-like canopies that bore the crap out of ya, ok? NEVER push the envelope!

Have you pushed the envelope on every canopy you've flown? Can you take it to the limit, every time, and still be totally safe and within fair confidence that you won't crash into someone else, and won't kill yourself?

I skydive to live, not to die. Pushing an envelope is for much later, not now, not when we are starting. It's for people who've been there, done that, and someday, if we don't push it now, we can push it then.

How many jumps do you have? I have 78. What canopy are you flying? I fly a boat - err, Spectre 210. What's your wingloading? Mine is somewhat close to 1.1. have you taken a canopy class? I have.

I looked at your profile, but you have nothing listed. Just wondering about your gear.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with flying big canopies. Also for the record, I have yet to have a long, boring canopy ride on anything, including the big assed student canopies. Like the one I had to cut from on jump 3. Now, that was exciting.

If you don't respect the sport, it will not respect you. If you do not learn, it will not teach you. This stuff is not learned by osmosis...it is learned by taking a canopy control class, and by hard knocks. It is learned by working a "boat" canopy time and again, until, about 200 jumps under that same canopy, you might know a bit more than when you started. It is not learned by getting the smallest canopy you can find, throwing it on your back with no formal canopy training, and slamming yourself into the ground. That will teach you about good drugs and better surgeons, if you're lucky. If not, well, there's not much left to learn, is there?

If you want to make all the mistakes others have made, then go your merry way and fly whatever you want - but like some of them (Paul Cousins comes to mind), you will get in over your head, and you might die. I sure hope you don't....

As for me and my choices, I think I'll learn everything I can from every incident posted, take the canopy classes whenever I can, learn from the experts, listen to those who've had years and years and many jumps in the sport, and then make my choices wisely and carefully.

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of course, these are just my humble opinions

As are mine.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

And your choices are your own. I do not list my gear because I do not have to, and in not doing so, I avoid hearing shit from people about it; not that there is anything wrong with what I am flying.

I have 60 jumps, I jump at a .9:1 WL, which isn't any of anyones business, but I thought i'd mention it since it is so very low:)

Anyhow, i'm kinda sick of hearing the "have you wrung out your current canopy" argument. I mean, I suppose I should still be jumping student gear then, since i'm sure I didn't test those to their limits, eh? Not that I could ever do so since I couldn't budge the risers

Take care and stay safe.
Angela.

[Michele 1]

Quote

I mean, I suppose I should still be jumping student gear then, since i'm sure I didn't test those to their limits, eh? Not that I could ever do so since I couldn't budge the risers

LOL, me too! And truth be told, I really can't do much with the canopy's risers I have now, either.

But here's the thing, Angela. I've never caught any shit from anyone about my canopy choice, nor have I ever worried that I would. I know my choice is compatible with newbie jumping...and got great advice from people who taught me. I have to wonder what you're flying that you're concerned about "catching it" from others?

A wingloading as you describe is, in my incredibly uneducated opinion, a good one for you. But again, it would also depend...it you fly a 170 at .9, kewlio. But if you fly a 129 at the same w/l, that might be an issue. If you don't understand why, then maybe you should find out?

The other thing is, if you've had normal canopy progression, you would've been on student stuff 'til jump 2o (using the old regs). Which means you've only had 40 jumps on a canopy - and again, if you're normal, then you've switched and downsized for a bit. Let's call it until jump 35. Which really means you've only put 25 jumps on a canopy - assuming it's the same one - that is at .9

When you say you're sick of hearing about wringing out the performance, what do you mean? Are you utterly confident that:
~you can brake turn 35 degrees at 150 feet?
~land that canopy each time you fly it on your toes?
~comfortable and at ease flying it in most every condition? (within limits, of course...not talking about thunderstorms or winds at 25...)
~land it successfully in the Walmart parking lot because you got a bad spot?
~are accurate within your license requirements every time, in every condition?
~landed without causing issues for other jumpers on a high volume day when there's another 23 people in the sky with you?
and so on.

I honestly can't see how you've managed to do all that (and many many more things) in 25 jumps - or 30 jumps - or even 40 jumps - especially without canopy control classes.

Hey, you might have. You might be a natural. You might be so wonderful that you've never had any issues. But that doesn't mean you won't, you know? And if you find flying a skybarge boring, make it exciting - learn how to fly the fuck outta that ol barge until you land each and every time to people saying "beautifully done, Angela. Absolutely perfect. Teach me how." When you can do that, and when that happens, then transition.

Look. People may be giving you shit because they think you might hurt yourself. I've been given shit - but not because of my canopy choice, but because I was having seriously difficult landings...and that brought me to the canopy class. I figured out early that I wasn't going to just pick this shit up. And in fact, flying the canopy is one of the most dangerous parts of a dangerous sport...so I got instruction on things. And 38 jumps later, I am just now learning how it all works - at the same time - and doing it consistently. I'm not swooping; heck, I'm generally happy that I am in the area I planned on being in.

Another question - how many hop n pops do you have?

Hey, girl, I'm not asking this to take you to task. You can listen to me or not - your choice. You can listen to people like Hooknswoop, Iamdrennan, whomever else. I am simply asking you because you sound like you may not be ready for something you might be considering trying, and I just don't want a condolence thread with your name on it, you know? That would suck ass. "Deepest condolences to Angela's family, and to all those who witnessed her death. Blue skies, girl." People are just trying to get you to make informed choices, choices you are ready for. That's all. Not ragging you...just trying to help. Take it that way, and it takes on a whole new perspective, you know? No one is trying to take your freedom away, just make sure you're alive to enjoy it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[NightJumper 0]

As an S&TA I have found that in the last year drop zones are communicating better with each other about skydivers that are in a high risk category for one reason or another. They are taking a proactive vs. reactive approach to safety and as a result, skydiving is safer. In every instance that I have received information it has been in the interest of safety and concern of the skydiver and others that may be affected. And upon further investigation I have found the information to be accurate.

As a result of the above several drop zones are taking a closer look and checking what gear skydivers are jumping. Just this last weekend I had someone checked that I was told about and as a result they were required to use a larger canopy and along with some help from an instructor, they are doing better.

Remember that skydiving is a privilege not a right.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I have a friend who went to another DZ and was told he could not jump his canopy.

He had going on 300 jumps and was jumping a Stilleto 135 on which he had about 60 jumps... ok small HP canopy I hear you say. But he is a skinny fuck and loaded this thing less than 0.9:1

(the dz was not worried it was a stilleto, just the size)The DZO said: "your not jumping anything that small and your not the lightest of guys" at which point my mate broke in and said... "now let me stop you there..." then pointed out his weight and his wing loading.

Still didn't win and was told he had to jump a 150... but that could be a stilletto. Now this guy had been on a sabre 135 for like 150 jumps before this so IMO was probably more in danger on the 150 (which he had 0 exp on) than on a 135.

moral of the story is... DZO always wins.

edited to add:

there was another guy there that day who loaded the fuck out of his 170 and was allowed to jump that. We figured that the motive behind the ruling was that if there's an incident on a 135 people just see 135 and thing he was overloading it for his exp and slate the DZ for letting him jump.

If there's an incidcent on a 170 people just think someone screwed up and dont blame the DZ... after all he was on a 170... why would they stop him jumping something that big?

I know its not right, but people do think like that when they hear an incident... the first thing they look at is canopy size ans many people stop right there when they find a 135.

[flyhi 24]

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there is the chart that we go by and it has run pretty smoothly with that chart except for when it was first being enforced other than that we have had no problem with people abiding by that and if they cant jump their canopy other jumpers will more than likely let them borrow a rig for no charge adn if the person chooses to use a student rig i believe the charge is 15 to 25 dollars

From the chart:

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Wing loading is the ratio of jumper exit weight to canopy size.

The formula for wing load is the exit weight divided by the canopy size.

For example: Jumper Joe has an exit weight (Joe + gear) of 225 pounds and is jumping a 150 square foot canopy, Joe’s wing load is 1:1.5.

I believe they have it reversed in their example. Shouldn't it be 1.5:1?

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[Rdutch 0]

Quote

So people should be free to kill themselves?

Some idiot jumping a canopy they have no reason to be under, only gives this sport a bad reputation. When someone pounds in, and kills themselves because they dont have the experience, or the knowledge to understand the canopy they are jumping is too small for them. Flying a highly wingloaded canopy and landing it a few times, doesnt mean that someone is capable of flying that canopy. There is a lot more to it. I could bet that everyone that has any time in this sport has seen it before, and will see it again. I can speak from experience, broken Femur's are no fun.
I for one dont want to be in the air with people like this, because they are not only dangerous to themselves, but also to everyone in the air with them.
I fully agree with a dz not letting someone jump a canopy they arent ready for, especially when the Dzo made that decision not based on a wingloading #, but based on the person's demonstration for lack of ability/common sence.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Ron 10]

Angela,

The simple fact is that there has to be some restrictions in this sport for the saftey of the sport and the people in it..

A WL restriction is a natural progression of the sport...It might go away after a more safe attitude about canopy flight takes hold. right now we have guys with 100 jumps trying to get Eliptical that is highly loaded.

The same thing happened with pull altitudes...Back in the 60's you pulled where you thought you could survive. Low pulls killed a large number of people. Then some DZ's came out with minimum pull altitudes. People fought them, hated them, threatend to go to other DZ's....Then the BSR's came out and gave minumum pull altitudes. Some ignored them, and some still do. Now a large number of people think that they are to low and should be raised.

Funny huh?

Well the same thing is going to happen with canopies. When these came out you had to be very experienced to get them....After a few years the manufactors restrictions were relaxed or removed, and the used market made it so a guy could get what he wanted, but it would be used. MANY people died. Now some DZ's are saying that you can't jump X WL till you have Y jumps (The same thing that happened with pull altitudes. X altitude when you get Y jumps). People are going to bitch about it, some are going to break them...But at some point it will be the norm just like Pull altitudes. Then the attitude will change and people will agree with them, and the education will be better. And they will not be needed anymore.

Like it or not it will happen , and infact is happening.

Not everyone jumps in FL, CA, or other states that have full time DZ's with people like Scott Miller standing around. When I started the guy with the most jumps at my DZ had 1500 and had been skydiving 20 years.

To not have these kind of canopy rules would be like saying it would be ok to let someone just put on a rig and jump if they want...Its legal, but not smart or safe. And yes, it has been done.

I don't hear many people bitching about AAD's for students. Pull Altitudes, wind limits ect...But when these things came out there were people bitching about them.

Like it or not a reasonable amount of regulation is good for the sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skybytch 273]

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I fully agree with a dz not letting someone jump a canopy they arent ready for, especially when the Dzo made that decision not based on a wingloading #, but based on the person's demonstration for lack of ability/common sence.

I agree 100%... but would add "aggressive canopy type" to the equation.

If you can't put a less aggressive canopy type at whatever wingloading on a beer can in the landing area every time you aren't ready for a more aggressive canopy type at whatever wingloading - even if that wingloading is 1.0 or less. If you've come close to hitting obstacles more than once in your last 20 jumps on any type of canopy at any wingloading you are not ready for a more aggressive canopy type at any wingloading.

If you lie to those who can "blacklist" you about what a highly experienced canopy control instructor who has seen you land a canopy several times said regarding what type and size canopy would be best for you...

[Tonto 1]

At our DZ you're not allowed to exceed a wing loading of 1.25 until you have 100 dives without CI consent.

Our DZ is high altitude (5000ft AMSL) and very hot in the summer.

We try and be polite about it - but if there's lots of attitude - well, it's not their club, it's ours, and our members seem happy with the rule.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[davelepka 4]

Well put. People need to consider the rate at which canopy design is progressing, and realize that if the training doesn't progress at the same rate, there will be a problem.

While I have seen the emergence of some canopy control courses, widespread advanced canopy training has yet to catch on. So the problem is that we have canopies which are beyond the capablilties of the jumpers who are trying to get thier hands on them. Does anyone really believe that the canopy training provided in the first jump course provides sufficient information for a jumper to be free to select any canopy they please? Probably not, but for many jumpers, that represents the whole of thier canopy training.

I have said this before, but jumpers seem to spend quite a bit of time and money working on honing thier freefall skills, while paying little attention to thier canopy control. Load oragnizers, video, debriefs, and tunnel time are all well and good, but those freefall skills will do you little good if you sideline yourself with an injury under a fully functioning parachute. It happens all the time.

We need to catch on that safely operating a modern parachute is complex and dynamic situation. Understanding the theories and principals involved becomes increasingly more important as the canopies themselves become more advanced and capable. Jumpers who aren't willing to persue the training needed to operate these parachutes, need to rely on W/L restrictions as related to jump numbers to allow them to sneak up on proficient canopy flight through shear jump numbers. On the other hand, jumpers who are willing to dedicate the time and money to seek out the training (which will become cheaper and more prevalent as the interest in it increases) will discover a steeper learning curve, a safer persuit of advanced skills, and will be jumping faster canopies, swooping further, and doing it safely much quicker than they had anticipated.

[Ron 10]

Very well said.

We here tried to get something like this done, but the majority of people opposed it.

Some just because it limits personal freedom. But I don't hear them bitching about having to take a skydiving course insted of just straping a chute on and going, or having pull altitudes. The reason they don't bitch is it has been that way for so long that they don't know any other way. The simple fact is that the new student on the DZ will never know his personal freedom is being stepped on. He will not know any better. Just like todays students can't imaging the days when you didn't need a course, and the SIM suggested that SOMEONE on the load have an altimeter.

Most yelled about it because it would not let them get the toy they wanted....But there are plenty of examples where that is a good thing. Alcohol, Tobacco, Driving, guns all come to mind here in the US. These have limits based on experience (Years alive). And they seem to work well.

I am in favor of allowing an advanced student to pass a test and be allowed to downsize faster than the norm. But it would have to be a test, not just taking a class. Without passing the test they would have to earn experience through raw jumps and the school of hard knocks.

While raw jump numbers are not a perfect way to guage skill...The simple fact is that 99% of the time it works.

My real point is that like it or not it is comming.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jsaxton 0]

Oh, I thought that there was a FAR that required a two parachute system...

[pd190 0]

Okay, let me put some of this stuff to rest...

I'm not going to go into "freedom" and "it's your right to splatter yourself."

I'll just give you the facts....

The DZ that everyone is so upset about that is using a wingload guide is my home DZ. Everyone is saying "It's like they are canopy nazi's!"

Well, they kinda had to be....

1. Fact - after a severe incident during a beach jump when a jumper with 200ish (230 lbs jumper) hooked a cobalt 105 into the beach and had to be life flighted out , the airport commision board said fix this or you'll never skydive here agian.

2. DZO's were either to close shop or establish something to go by. The DZO spent many nights on the phone with other DZO's and doing some research with USPA, and came up with this chart.

3. The DZO kept the dropzone open and we skydive our asses off every weekend.

It's your choice as to what and where. No worries. And this chart is not THE BIBLE of canopy sizes and wingload. It's used as a guide but is held pretty close to the numbers.

The stuff about getting the scolding for not getting your liscense is the DZO's attempt at some humor.

[Jimbo 0]

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1. Fact - after a severe incident during a beach jump when a jumper with 200ish (230 lbs jumper) hooked a cobalt 105 into the beach and had to be life flighted out , the airport commision board said fix this or you'll never skydive here agian.

I hate to get off track here, but really, the entire dropzone should be ashamed that this happened. Absolutely ashamed.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[pd190 0]

Jim,

You're right, we aren't proud of this. The jumper was one of my best friends. We all had warned him numerous times that this was not the canopy for him. he was talked to by the S&TA, the DZO, the chief instructors. He insisted that he would be fine...because there was no guide at that time, he was allowed to jump it and almost cost everyone a nice DZ to jump at. Thus, the wingload chart and some restrictions....

It was either get something to ensure some relative safety or find somewhere else to skydive.

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

...because there was no guide at that time, he was allowed to jump it

Why did you need a guide before you would ground him? That doesn't make any sense to me, none at all.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Ron 10]

You don't need a guide to know that 230 pounds under a 105 with 200 jumps is not a good idea.

Repeat after me: "Sorry Bob, you will not jump that canopy here"

Easy as pie really.

But my point is that I agree with this chart, and I bet we will see many more DZ's get one until the USPA adopts one.

But (and I have not seen the chart) most rules should not have jokes on them or in them. It clouds the issue.

Where is this DZ anyway? I will gladly jump there. They are taking steps to insure the saftey of the sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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Why did you need a guide before you would ground him? That doesn't make any sense to me, none at all.

Exactly!

For instance, take my DZ. The DZO is very understanding of folks wanting to push their limits and grow in this sport. He also allows high-wingloadings and high performance approaches.

The S&TA is the same way (same person..small DZ), but he WILL ground you if you're a) stupid with the canopy or b) jumping a canopy beyond your limits.

The Instructional staff will pull jumpers to the side and talk to them at length about their decisions (to the side, aka in private if possible). If there is a persistant problem, the S&TA will sit down (in private) with a problem jumper to try to help.

IMHO, that is how it is *supposed* to happen, unfortunately, people can and do slip through the cracks. Although, if jumpers truely care about their DZ and their fellow jumpers, they'll take it upon themselves to approach the S&TA about a percieved problem so it can be brought to light and resolved.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Oh, I thought that there was a FAR that required a two parachute system...

Oops, thought you were replying to this post:

Quote

>I know you are not stating that because they limit wingloading, they
>will be safer. This must be a typo.

What makes a DZ safe or unsafe is made up of many variables - the prevailing attitude, the amount new jumpers listen, the amount of advice experienced jumpers give, the care the DZO applies to aircraft maintenance, and yes, even rules that say what you can and can't do. One of those rules may well be a wingloading limit. At many places they are informal - when I was an S+TA I'd know when someone was on a canopy they couldn't handle. Other places have more formal rules. All of these things make up a safe drop zone.

So yes, having rules may well make a DZ safer. Every DZ out there has rules of one form or another. Many of them follow USPA BSR's, and those were written in blood. Many others add their own, like AAD usage or wing loading limits.

I didn't go back enough pages to find the earlier post, sorry.

Derek

[lummy 4]

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He had going on 300 jumps and was jumping a Stilleto 135 on which he had about 60 jumps... ok small HP canopy I hear you say. But he is a skinny fuck and loaded this thing less than 0.9:1

Dude... that would mean your friend was about 120lbs out the door or about 95 lbs...

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[Trent 0]

I always notice that a persons vehement opposition to wing loading BSRs and DZ rules is inversely related to their jump numbers and/or apparent experience. Coincidence?

That wingloading chart is not that unreasonable at all. To the people who REALLY don't like it because they don't fit into the categories: Maybe you ARE a canopy prodigy, but not everyone can be the exception... or else you wouldn't be an exception, would you? The rules are there to protect the "normal" jumpers at this dropzone and to protect the DZ itself. If you don't think you have something to learn within those wingloading breakdowns, think again.

Oh, hello again!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I always notice that a persons vehement opposition to wing loading BSRs and DZ rules is inversely related to their jump numbers and/or apparent experience. Coincidence?

You may think you see that correlation, but I don't it's very strong. And I know that "always" is not true. DZ had a poll running not too long back, and I don't believe the 40% or so that opposed the BSR were all on the low jump side.

You'll have 100 jump'ers who oppose it for "self interest" and 100 jump'ers who welcome all safety regulations regardless of value. On the experienced side, you'll have 2000 jump veterens who predate licensing and find the old mentor system fine, and those who don't believe the 100 jump'ers can think for themselves. And in between all of them you have the general belief that something is in order, but not quite sure what would be best.

[Partorg 0]

Still talking ?
How about mark DZs by code?
Extremly free-1
Wing load limits-2
Beer drinking only-3
And let's every one make hes own choice.

I'll see you when I see you and if I don't see you.........Hell with you.