rmsmith 1 #101 October 12, 2003 QuoteThen come back and tell me the same thing can't happen to skydiving. Mr Stout would sue even with a waiver in place. The problem is with the courts and the judges who control them. The insurance companies are simply dancing to the court's beat that demands ever larger awards. In addition, Mr Stout didn't care enough about his son's activities to know that he wasn't using proper equipment for his base jump. Poor communication? Shame on you Mr Stout! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 19 #102 October 12, 2003 I doubt that he will win this lawsuit--there is just not rational way. People can say all they want about the courts, but they do rule properly in most cases. It clearly wasn't an issue of the bridle being too short. If you saw the video, the pilot chute made a profile just like it would if a rubber band was wrapped around it (Brian packed it that way). Any pilot chute would open a container before 5.5 seconds unless something was physically done to it (ripped or something tying it closed). I think similar lawsuits had happened in skydiving. I was under the impression it was more common in skydiving... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #103 October 12, 2003 Sorry, I should have been more specific. Quote"I don't want to ban it. I want it regulated," Roberts said. The following is from Brian Stout's father. QuoteHe said if BASE jumping off the Perrine Bridge had been regulated, it would have been discovered that his son did not have the correct gear configuration for doing the coordinated jump with seven other BASE jumpers. "If I have my way, I'm going to do something about it." Lawsuits can be beaten or dismissed. It's regulation imposed by a government that's more worrisome. And it only takes a few upset parents to make that happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #104 October 13, 2003 Training is the key! Couldn't dealers ask for some sort of "proof" in which to gauge whever a canopy is suitable or not for"X"customer. Edited to add.Joined this thread late so appollogising if the above suggestion has already been discussed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #105 October 13, 2003 QuoteTraining is the key! Couldn't dealers ask for some sort of "proof" in which to gauge whever a canopy is suitable or not for"X"customer. Quote Proof of what? What training will dealers need to evaluate their customers' canopy skills? Why should a dealer be obligated to look after a customer when the customer doesn't wish to look after himself? Isn't evaluating skydivers the job of instructors and S&TAs, not gear shop employees? IMO putting the onus on dealers is inappropriate as well as unworkable.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites trigger 0 #106 October 13, 2003 Why not! proof preferably signed that a jumper has the relevent skills required/needed to'SAFELY' handle 'X'type of wing. NOTE:There can always be a disclaimer attached because as we all know you can still have an accident even if you have got 25,000+jumps in this sport..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #107 October 13, 2003 Signed by whom? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites trigger 0 #108 October 13, 2003 Known quantity'CCI', ST&A,Recognised canopy cantrol coach..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyMissy 0 #109 October 13, 2003 DOOR! All I know is this sport could get really boring really fast if the sky yuppies continue to thrive in the mindset that this sport is safe as long as there are enough rules. No personal shots at anyone, I didn't even get through the second page of posts, so take this interjection for what it's worth (not much). But leave me alone with my parachute and I'll see you on the ground. Unless I die, but then that's MY fault. DOOR!________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #110 October 13, 2003 >And the obvious conclusion is.....? Require education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #111 October 13, 2003 QuoteDOOR! All I know is this sport could get really boring really fast if the sky yuppies continue to thrive in the mindset that this sport is safe as long as there are enough rules. No personal shots at anyone, I didn't even get thtough the second page of posts, so take this interjection for what it's worth (not much). But leave me alone with my parachute and I'll see you on the ground. Unless I die, but then that's MY fault. DOOR! Damn straight - this is a danger to any emerging growth sport - more people enter, thereby lowering the average participant IQ, competition tends to force quality of training down, accidents go up, and then the [bad] response is to try to replace personal judgement with rule setting. OTOH, skydiving appears to be a sport with a stable participant count, and declining fatalities. There is a marked shift in how the accidents happen towards landing issues, but it's still a very low count. If you told most Americans that only 30 people die with millions of jumps, they'd be surprised. They think it's closer to russian roullette. This fear of government takeover seems a bit overstated. And when it comes to legislating whuffos who want to save us, no bones you give them with wing loading BSRs will satisfy them, because they don't see any valid reason for us to be up there in the first place. Self imposed rules reaffirm their conviction that we lack the ability to think for and protect ourselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #112 October 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteA hypothetical question: I jump a VX-60. I am also an AFF I/E. I think it is possible for me to convince a recently graduated student that my canopy is the canopy for them. "Hey, I'll coach you. You'll be fine, you are a natural." Then sell it to them. If (and when) they are seriously injured or killed under that canopy, should I shoulder any blame? Derek the seller should, in theory, shoulder a hefty amount of personal guilt. However, no one forced the jumper in question to purchase the canopy, no one forced him or her to not seek second opinions from others who are more familiar with the skills of said jumper, and no one forced the jumper to strap the rig to his or her back and jump out of an airplane with it. First off, I don't know the canopies very well beyond the obvious footage value. Not sure if 60 is size or a model number. That said, if an instructor talked a new jumper into a chute that 10 out of 10 skydivers would say was grossly inappropriate, and did so for a profit motive, he does get a good chunk of the responsibility for the accident. They have a much higher duty of care than any other jumpers in the hangar as the new jumper has a high level of trust in them, and insufficient experience to discount bad information. If only 3 or 4 people believe it to be bad advice, it's the jumper's burden as there is not consensus. (This isn't a legal statement, just my opinion. I want instructors to feel they can speak freely) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sunsetjim 0 #113 October 21, 2003 Had to throw in my .02 worth on this issue: I'm a new jumper. I just bought my first rig, first canopy - first everything. And before i did - i talked to everyone i could about it. About this canopy, that canopoy, this rig, that rig - whatever i wanted to know - people told me. A regular jumper at my dz - one of the first to take me into the world of skydiving, gave me this advice - come saturday night, sit around the fire, buy beer, talk to people. they will give of themselves like a river. he was right. I've heard my dz has a 'no rules' kind of reputation. And i guess it could be, if you want it to be. My experience is very different though. I know that i know nothing about skydiving. And i want to learn as much as i can. So i ask questions, talk w/people, try to jump w/new people, do hop and pops from altitude w/experienced canopy pilots. And if (when) i fuck up - i've got 10 people looking out for me going "whoa dude - do you really want to be doing ....(insert whatever here)". And if i suddenly showed up @ the dz w/some crazy hp canopy - i would have to answer a lot of questions about it. I wouldn't just be able to jump it. Because i took a small step and got to know people, talked to them, got advice,etc - they all took the reciprocal step and watch out for me, point things out to me, help me, guide me, etc. And that is the best thing you can do for a new skydiver. If you're a new jumper and you don't talk to people, don't learn from them, don't ask questions, don't ask for advice - that's your fault. If, however you do get to know those around you, you should never get into a situation where you do get hurt because you're flying inappropriate gear. Your dz (ie - any and everyone who knows you) should have stepped in and sat you down and had a long talk about canopy choices. I do think that canopy training is very important. i plan on taking a canopy course the first chance i get. But i think the single most important way we can prevent more avoidable accidents is to actually BE the community we are. Look out for each other - everything you can share might help someone else out - especially the stern "you should NOT be flying that thing w/this few jumps". jim (sorry for the novel length post) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 5 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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trigger 0 #106 October 13, 2003 Why not! proof preferably signed that a jumper has the relevent skills required/needed to'SAFELY' handle 'X'type of wing. NOTE:There can always be a disclaimer attached because as we all know you can still have an accident even if you have got 25,000+jumps in this sport..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #107 October 13, 2003 Signed by whom? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #108 October 13, 2003 Known quantity'CCI', ST&A,Recognised canopy cantrol coach..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #109 October 13, 2003 DOOR! All I know is this sport could get really boring really fast if the sky yuppies continue to thrive in the mindset that this sport is safe as long as there are enough rules. No personal shots at anyone, I didn't even get through the second page of posts, so take this interjection for what it's worth (not much). But leave me alone with my parachute and I'll see you on the ground. Unless I die, but then that's MY fault. DOOR!________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #110 October 13, 2003 >And the obvious conclusion is.....? Require education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #111 October 13, 2003 QuoteDOOR! All I know is this sport could get really boring really fast if the sky yuppies continue to thrive in the mindset that this sport is safe as long as there are enough rules. No personal shots at anyone, I didn't even get thtough the second page of posts, so take this interjection for what it's worth (not much). But leave me alone with my parachute and I'll see you on the ground. Unless I die, but then that's MY fault. DOOR! Damn straight - this is a danger to any emerging growth sport - more people enter, thereby lowering the average participant IQ, competition tends to force quality of training down, accidents go up, and then the [bad] response is to try to replace personal judgement with rule setting. OTOH, skydiving appears to be a sport with a stable participant count, and declining fatalities. There is a marked shift in how the accidents happen towards landing issues, but it's still a very low count. If you told most Americans that only 30 people die with millions of jumps, they'd be surprised. They think it's closer to russian roullette. This fear of government takeover seems a bit overstated. And when it comes to legislating whuffos who want to save us, no bones you give them with wing loading BSRs will satisfy them, because they don't see any valid reason for us to be up there in the first place. Self imposed rules reaffirm their conviction that we lack the ability to think for and protect ourselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #112 October 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteA hypothetical question: I jump a VX-60. I am also an AFF I/E. I think it is possible for me to convince a recently graduated student that my canopy is the canopy for them. "Hey, I'll coach you. You'll be fine, you are a natural." Then sell it to them. If (and when) they are seriously injured or killed under that canopy, should I shoulder any blame? Derek the seller should, in theory, shoulder a hefty amount of personal guilt. However, no one forced the jumper in question to purchase the canopy, no one forced him or her to not seek second opinions from others who are more familiar with the skills of said jumper, and no one forced the jumper to strap the rig to his or her back and jump out of an airplane with it. First off, I don't know the canopies very well beyond the obvious footage value. Not sure if 60 is size or a model number. That said, if an instructor talked a new jumper into a chute that 10 out of 10 skydivers would say was grossly inappropriate, and did so for a profit motive, he does get a good chunk of the responsibility for the accident. They have a much higher duty of care than any other jumpers in the hangar as the new jumper has a high level of trust in them, and insufficient experience to discount bad information. If only 3 or 4 people believe it to be bad advice, it's the jumper's burden as there is not consensus. (This isn't a legal statement, just my opinion. I want instructors to feel they can speak freely) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunsetjim 0 #113 October 21, 2003 Had to throw in my .02 worth on this issue: I'm a new jumper. I just bought my first rig, first canopy - first everything. And before i did - i talked to everyone i could about it. About this canopy, that canopoy, this rig, that rig - whatever i wanted to know - people told me. A regular jumper at my dz - one of the first to take me into the world of skydiving, gave me this advice - come saturday night, sit around the fire, buy beer, talk to people. they will give of themselves like a river. he was right. I've heard my dz has a 'no rules' kind of reputation. And i guess it could be, if you want it to be. My experience is very different though. I know that i know nothing about skydiving. And i want to learn as much as i can. So i ask questions, talk w/people, try to jump w/new people, do hop and pops from altitude w/experienced canopy pilots. And if (when) i fuck up - i've got 10 people looking out for me going "whoa dude - do you really want to be doing ....(insert whatever here)". And if i suddenly showed up @ the dz w/some crazy hp canopy - i would have to answer a lot of questions about it. I wouldn't just be able to jump it. Because i took a small step and got to know people, talked to them, got advice,etc - they all took the reciprocal step and watch out for me, point things out to me, help me, guide me, etc. And that is the best thing you can do for a new skydiver. If you're a new jumper and you don't talk to people, don't learn from them, don't ask questions, don't ask for advice - that's your fault. If, however you do get to know those around you, you should never get into a situation where you do get hurt because you're flying inappropriate gear. Your dz (ie - any and everyone who knows you) should have stepped in and sat you down and had a long talk about canopy choices. I do think that canopy training is very important. i plan on taking a canopy course the first chance i get. But i think the single most important way we can prevent more avoidable accidents is to actually BE the community we are. Look out for each other - everything you can share might help someone else out - especially the stern "you should NOT be flying that thing w/this few jumps". jim (sorry for the novel length post) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
