Blacklisting

[sunshine 2]

I like that you're a very safety conscious person and trying to make canopy flight safer for everyone. I'll admit that i'm at a loss of what can possibly be done to make it safer. Me personally, i give newbies good advice about what kind of canopy to get and thats about the extent of what i do. I think it would be great if there was a reasonable system in place to ensure people are jumping something that is safe for them. I've lost far too many friends in the sport already. Keep coming up with ideas and brainstorming, the more people that take safety seriously, the better off the sport will be.

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meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[diablopilot 2]

While I appreciate Jack's sentiments in the matter, and agree with the senselessness of some of the recent injuries and deaths in the sport, I doubt the blacklist idea is a good one.

Mr. Guthrie would not appreciate being on a "DZ Blacklist" for high injury/death rates.

In fact he might just sue for such a bit of slander/libel.

I think word of mouth, instructor/mentor supervision, DZ imposed groundings, dealers who care, and jumpers taking responsibility for themselves are the way to go.

It's an long drawn out fight, older than skydiving it's self with no end in sight.

Tiresome, but worth it if it saves even one.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BETO74 0]

[Well, except for one company I got a demo from. They asked my jump numbers (and I was honest with them), asked my exit weight (I was honest here as well) and they sent me a 170 (loading at just a hair under 1.7:1), without even a care.
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Maybe is the same company that's holding my canopy for two weeks now and counting, Sent it to fix a small problem and I haven't hear from them at all. Did I just loose my canopy? Where is my canopy?

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[skybytch 273]

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I think word of mouth, instructor/mentor supervision, DZ imposed groundings, dealers who care, and jumpers taking responsibility for themselves are the way to go.

I would agree with you, but too few dzo's are willing to impose groundings and/or uphold groundings made by other dzo's, too many instructors/mentors are giving bad advice on canopy selection and too many dealers (and some manufacturers and many jumpers selling used canopies privately) only care about how much money they can make.

I've said before - I don't know what the answer is. I do know that people with 40 jumps dying because shit happened and they weren't capable of dealing with it under the canopy they were flying is wrong.

I don't understand what's so bad about spending a couple hundred jumps learning about canopy flight under a light wingloading before going smaller. My question is how do we make that "cool"?

[Sebazz1 2]

It would be easy and ideal to have people be responsible for their own decisions and actions. But how can we honestly agree that someone with less than 300 jumps really understands what they are flying? I bet there are folks right now with 300 jumps that disagree with me. They will see. Skydivers are prooving that they can not make good decisions when flying perfectly good canopies. Not everyone, not most jumpers mind you, but enough to warrant some serious review of how we do regulate who jumps what and when. Enough to to warrant making a decision for a lower time jumper that may or may not be unable to make a sound decision on a canopy purchase for him or her self. Enough to possibly punish those who sell canopies to individuals with total disregard to manufaturer recomendations and common sense...

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I don't understand what's so bad about spending a couple hundred jumps learning about canopy flight under a light wingloading before going smaller.

Didn't you just sell a container to a 30 jump person that needed a 126 reserve?

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skybytch 273]

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Didn't you just sell a container to a 30 jump person that needed a 126 reserve?

Yes I did, and I've already explained my reasons for doing so.

How many novices died this year under reserves they load at 1:1 body weight?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Cross post from TalkBack in response to BendyWendy and Skybytch:






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In Reply To
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It's up to those of us who've seen what can happen, who've attended funerals and hugged crying mothers, who've watched the life flight helicopter fly away with our friends hoping against hope that they survive... it's up to us to let novice jumpers know that they don't know jack shit yet, and it's up to us to limit the caliber of weapon they can fly, at least until they've got some more jumps and education under their belts.

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You can talk cold and hard all day long about the logic of buying a canopy, how the jumper is responsible, etc.....until you have witnessed what Lisa said above, you may not fully grasp the reality that Sport Death is, and the emotional pain that it can bring into your life. I know I took more chances than I probably should have when I first started, and people at my DZ were successfull at stopping me somewhat....and Lisa here also told me "NO!" when I came to her to purchase my first Stiletto. She earned my respect that day and caused me to question my purchase even more - to do more research, to talk to more JMs. It is possible she saved me from hurting myself.

Then I watched my friends die (In fact, yesterday was the 2-year mark from when we lost Steve and Deb after a canopy collision, and this weekend will be the 2-year mark from when we lost Bruce). Then I had to bury them and go to their funerals. Then I had to do it again, and again. I've done it too many times and realize that I will one day most likely have to do it again.

However, as I told Lisa via IM earlier, I'm still not sure a BSR is the best way to go - BendyWendy did a good job above of expressing the same thoughts that I have. BUT, after talking things over with Lisa and HeatherB today, I'm starting to think that a Blacklist is exactly what this sport needs.

We NEED to change some perceptions in this sport. As skydivers, we tend to enjoy breaking the rules - it's part of the personality associated with us. Creating a new rule to break will increase the usage of downsizing too soon. Some of the biggest perceptions in this sport are "you aren't cool unless you can swoop, go fast, hook, wear a camera, freefly off of graduation, jump someting small, etc." Somehow people believe that you are a better skydiver if you jump the small stuff, the highend stuff and rush to get under a cross-braced canopy. This goes for A LOT of people on this forum.

It's up to the community to make the change. Lisa does her part on the gear side. She refuses sales and keeps people safe. Not everyone in the industry does that, but more should take her lead.

I'm part of a group called Team Funnel - our focus is on having fun while focusing on safety. As a group we are tired of losing friends, and we are doing our best to make sure that doesn't happen, WITOUT holding everyone's hands. How do we do that? We jump with the new grads free of charge and coach them, we recommend they stay away from bigger ways, etc.....instill the common sense that a newbie doesn't have yet. On those marginal wind days, we stay on the ground even thou we know we could jump and point out to the newbies that we have years and jumps on them, maybe they should pull themself from the load. In other words, the experienced jumpers are leading by example, changing the perceptions.....

The people that don't care, that want to move/sell their gear no matter what...need to be held accountable and Blacklisted. Change the perception that it's not ok to do that....

Lead by example like Lisa does, like Team Funnel does. The sport will sort itself out and become safer in the long run. The dumb perceptions will change, and safe will become cool.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Speranza 0]

As lisa so aptly points out, any consciensious and ethical gear salesman can be duped into selling an inappropriately sized canopy to a customer. I always went to every effort to qualify my customers for the canopies they were interested in but one kind of got away from me.
When I refused to sell this person a Stiletto at 100 jumps he simply walked across the street to another dealer, lied about his experience and walked back to the DZ with his new Stiletto. An hour later I was holding his head for the EMTs as they worked to save his life. He lived and a year later thanked me for trying to talk some sense into him.
If an over-anxious jumper wants an inappropriate canopy badly enough they will get it. Education, not regulation is the key to curtailing this. The dealer who sold the Stiletto in the case I'm referring to could have spent a few minutes or hours verifying this jumper's experience level while he was juggling 6 other orders and a store full of people. He wishes he had. Unfortunately some slip through the cracks. The jumper blames no one but himself.
Hi Lisa!

Dave

[ianmdrennan 2]

Ok - I know something can get lost in text so don't think I'm trying to pick a fight with you, but rather wanting you to think about your statement and what you've encouraged. All I'm saying is that it's the re-inforcement of a mentality that small is ok. So don't ask why do jumpers think small is cool when you're (IMO) re-inforcing that notion, reserve or not.

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How many novices died this year under reserves they load at 1:1 body weight?

How many novices used a 126 this year?

Just trying to present a different side of the thought process.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skybytch 273]

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Just trying to present a different side of the thought process.

And I respect that. I'm far from perfect, and I'm always learning more about what I do for a living.

I used to feel differently about reserve sizing. Then I worked for an extremely experienced, highly ethical gear dealer who routinely recommended a 1:1 body weight loading for novice's reserves. I also read incident reports and I have yet to see one where someone with 50 jumps died under a reserve loaded at 1:1 body weight. That said, if someone says to me they want to buy a larger reserve I will encourage them to do so because I feel it's important that a jumper be confident in their ability to land their reserve in a bad situation.

I worry far more about main canopy sizing for novices, as the main is the canopy that we all land with the majority of the time.

[champu 1]

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I don't understand what's so bad about spending a couple hundred jumps learning about canopy flight under a light wingloading before going smaller. My question is how do we make that "cool"?

put up posters of someone in a hospital with a broken femur with the bold caption "100 jumps + 1.6lbs/sqft = irresponsible"?

I think someone loading a stiletto too highly when they have 200 jumps, and a person with 35 jumps buying any canopy loaded too heavily are two different problems. I think talking to the people buying their first main is a big responsiblity of the DZO and the S&TA. The dangers of loading a canopy too heavily should be further engrained into the first jump courses being tought, all the way straight through coached jumps.

It's people who flew their 1:1 sabres or triathalons for a couple hundred jumps and want to get a 1.6 stiletto that I think would be more applicable targets of a less formal wingloading safety campaign. Not sure what such a campaign would entail though...

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

OK, so your only objection to the Blacklist would be if a ethical gear seller ended up on this list. Right?

How about this. Let's create the Blacklist now - that would give us a dozen or so names to put on the list for this year alone. Then, let's publish that Gear Sellers response or defense - this way if they were tricked into selling that gear, we can learn how it was done so the next guy can avoid it happening.

How about that?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[dgskydive 0]

I think the problem with that is once on a "list" it is not what got you there or got you off that is remembered. It is that you wherer on a "list". Kind of like folks accused of a crime and then set free later. They are remembered for the crime not the fact that they where released and cleared later. It's simple almost. If you don't have a USPA card you don't jump at a USPA DZ. If that USPA license say's "A" or "B" then you can only jump those canopies associated with the license that you hold. Dealers get acess to the USPA database and can verify what canopies they can sell the person legally. Go back to the color codes I spoke of earlier and the rest is on the DZ.

Dom

[bch7773 0]

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How about this. Let's create the Blacklist now - that would give us a dozen or so names to put on the list for this year alone. Then, let's publish that Gear Sellers response or defense - this way if they were tricked into selling that gear, we can learn how it was done so the next guy can avoid it happening.

that would be fine except that people already know dozens of ways to fool the dealer. you could tell him you weigh less, or have more jumps, or took a canopy control course. The only possible way would be to make the dealer talk to your ST&A, but there is ways around that too. Not to mention, if the dealer gets blacklisted, he can always bs his way out of it, saying the dead guy lied to him about his wingloading or whatever.

The main problem I see with the blacklist is that its pretty much an honor system, unless you have extensive backround checks of people trying to buy canopies.
Also, don't forget that many skydivers, especially newer ones, use used gear... and they don't usually buy it from a dealer... so the blacklist wouldn't help at all there.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[flyangel2 2]

Years ago when the higher performance canopy was coming out, there was a deal that use to make you fill out some paper work. It asked the basic stuff, jump number, weight, etc. Why can't dealers do that in case they think the person on the other end of the phone is not telling the truth? Then if and when the guy hooks it in, the deal pulls the paper work showing that he asked all the right questions. Kinda like a contract.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kelpdiver 2]

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Years ago when the higher performance canopy was coming out, there was a deal that use to make you fill out some paper work. It asked the basic stuff, jump number, weight, etc. Why can't dealers do that in case they think the person on the other end of the phone is not telling the truth? Then if and when the guy hooks it in, the deal pulls the paper work showing that he asked all the right questions. Kinda like a contract.

That works well enough, and isn't such a burden that people will work around it. That's a problem with trying to implement BSRs - you'd hate to have people purging and dehydrating themselves to make the weigh-in. Might encourage more nude skydiving though.

Color coding and other routines like that are at odds with the KISS principle or could distract the LO from other matter. Maybe you make it part of a safety check on the jumpers. It may just be a lot of effort that won't screen out determined fellows. And if you make it a forbidden activity rather than a frowned upon on, you encourage them to do it secretly. If you did want to do DZ enforcement, it may be easiest to do at the landing zone. Obviously they get off a jump first, but people are attentive with a new chute - it's later that they get complacent and more likely to get in trouble with the high wing load.

Those that talked about education and being sociable with the new jumpers- you're my heroes. Everyone at Monterey has been very friendly and talkative and set the grounds for leading by example. I think you get the best mileage here.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]will you beleive them[/QUOTE]

lol, I won't care. How does it affect me if a dealer is shady? I'll still go about purchasing canopies with the advice of friends, mentors, and instructors. Shady dealers will exist in any market. Its human nature, I've come to find out.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[headoverheels 333]

Unless there's some canopy piloting licensing, which I don't favor, I don't see how to set reasonable BSR limits. On one end, some people will never be able to safely handle certain canopies, whereas other pilots will do just fine. There are certainly canopy pilots with 400 jumps, and maybe a few with 200, that can fly better than me. Advising people not to jump canopies that are too small for them doesn't seem to work, at least on-line here. As someone said, they just keep asking different people until they get the answer they want. In person, we can perhaps have more influence, but the same problem exists.

[Samurai136 0]

I read that letter. Blacklisting people, DZ's, distributors, etc is a terrible idea.

Who maintains the 'blacklist'? How does someone get on the list? Rumor? A blacklist would kill all reporting of incidents and is a return to the dark ages.

Better yet, how do you get off the blacklist? Imagine this discussion:

"I want my name/ business removed from the blacklist."

"We heard you sold him the canopy he died under and we don't think he should be jumping it."

"I didn't sell it to him or permit him to jump it."

"That's not what we heard. Can you prove otherwise?"

"Can you?"

"Well, we're going w/ the information we have..."

Eventually, the well intensioned people managing the blacklist will devolve into some absurd safety nazi version of Brazil.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[kallend 2,027]

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Then I watched my friends die (In fact, yesterday was the 2-year mark from when we lost Steve and Deb after a canopy collision, and this weekend will be the 2-year mark from when we lost Bruce). Then I had to bury them and go to their funerals.

Neither Steve nor Deb were jumping highly loaded canopies (both were around 1:1 IIRC), and neither were "swooping" or making hook turns. Canopy type had nothing whatsoever to do with the accident. Ditto with Bruce.

It is really important before making any new rules or imposing blacklists that the problem be correctly identified.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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(both were around 1:1 IIRC), and neither were "swooping" or making hook turns. Canopy type had nothing whatsoever to do with the accident. Ditto with Bruce.

It is really important before making any new rules or imposing blacklists that the problem be correctly identified.

You do recall correct John, neither one was pushing the edge with their flying.

I guess maybe Blacklist is the wrong word to use - just add the gear seller to the incident checklist and allow them their input as well.

Once again - I'm not for a new BSR, but I am for some sort of change - if only in perceptions.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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[Vallerina 2]

Blacklisting is silly for so many reasons (I think most were listed here.) If a jumper wants that canopy, he's going to get and jump that canopy. All anyone can really do is try to make him not want that canopy.

Random thought....so, people don't like putting limits on skydivers' wingloadings. Also, as John has pointed out numerous times, dying under a good canopy isn't limited to those with less than 500 jumps. Could USPA make it a requirement for USPA dzs to host a canopy control camp at least once a year? From my limited experience, it seems that many people haven't taken one or gotten instruction because of the lack of availability.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[dgskydive 0]

I understand the resistance to more oversight and regulation but really what is the big deal. We already take a test for the different licenses and ratings we need. Why not have a few more questions added on to the test for canopy control. Or a set number of landings performed in the presence of an S&TA or some sort of canopy instructor. They check you out sign off and you have a new license number D-?????-HP or D-?????-Intermediate. Then have the manufactures rate the canopies and the buyer must show proof (valid USPA card) with the canopy rating on it. If you want to drive a motorcycle you have to have it added to your drivers license. Canopies will kill ya just as fast as motorcycle will. I say once again, I am not in favor of a bunch of new regulation, BUT something will have to be done sooner or later.

Dom

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you want to drive a motorcycle you have to have it added to your drivers license. Canopies will kill ya just as fast as motorcycle will.

In the US, most states require an additional license but once you have it, you're free to get the biggest fastest ride you like. California does have a M1 and M2 designation, but the M2 class is 150cc's or less, which most scooters don't fit into. It's no different from the A license process. You can do the MSF course on a Honda 150, and then go buy a 1300cc Hayabusa with a top speed just under 200mph.

In Asia and Europe, many countries do impose a HP or displacement limit for a period of time for new riders. You're proposing something similar - the catch is how do you actually implement it without having worse consequences. The primary danger is that you may force people to still make "aggressive" choices but now to do it secretly.