Hummusx 0 #1 October 9, 2003 What altitude do other people (particularly newer jumpers) typically break at when doing 2-,3-,4-ways? I like to pull at around 3500, which means I usually insist on breaking off at 4500. At times, I've had people roll their eyes or act quite shocked that I would want to break that high. Am I crazy? It's not unreasonable for someone with less than 100 jumps to want to break at 4500 is it? ____________________________________ It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 October 9, 2003 No, infact it's pretty sensible given what can happen. Also, less experienced jumpers are more likely to gain less seperation during their track, so having more time to track is probably a good thing. The freefly jumps I'm in normally break around 5k. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #3 October 9, 2003 imho, it's not unreasonable for anybody to want to break at 4500, regardless of the size of the jump or how many jumps you have. When I had 100 jumps and less we used to break off 4 ways at 3500. Our canopies opened a lot quicker and none of us had AAD's back then so pulling at 2000-2500 wasn't a problem like it can be with the slower opening mains of today. I prefer breaking off at or above 4000 now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #4 October 9, 2003 Break at 4 pull at 3 if a 4 way or fewer. Break 4.5 or higher if will people I don't feel as confident with or with a larger group. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #5 October 9, 2003 Not at all. The people who want to take it to the basement can do an after star while you're stowing your slider. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #6 October 9, 2003 QuoteI like to pull at around 3500, which means I usually insist on breaking off at 4500. This is something that has come about with AFF and Tandem training, which pull at 5,500'. To students trained thusly, any altitude less than that seems "low". By contrast, I learned by static line in the late 1970's, and was put out at 1,800'. Ack! So to me, I'm quite comfortable pulling at 2,500'. Experienced RW jumpers pull between 2,500 and 2,000', so if that is your ambition, you need to start getting more comfortable with lower pull altitudes. Otherwise, you'll find yourself being excluded from such dives, because no one else will want to "waste" 1,000 feet of altitude to accomodate you. What you are thinking is natural at your stage of experience. Just resolve to start working your way lower for breakoff, and being comfortable with that. And also resolve that if something goes awry with a 2,500' opening, that you won't waste any time dealing with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #7 October 9, 2003 Am I crazy?Quote NO YOU ARE NOT CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's not unreasonable for someone with less than 100 jumps to want to break at 4500 is it? Quote Not unresonable at all. Whenever I organize something I like everyone to be comfortable with the dive. If one person does not like it then we talk about it to see what can be changed. I've had people roll their eyes or act quite shocked that I would want to break that high.*** Next time this happens and they are not willing to work with you then kindly decline jumping with them. Laters, KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 October 9, 2003 Quote What altitude do other people (particularly newer jumpers) typically break at when doing 2-,3-,4-ways? Most 4-way teams breakoff at 4,000 AGL. The absolute lowest breakoff allowed by the rules is 3,500 AGL. See SCM 5-1.7(B)(1) Quote I like to pull at around 3500, which means I usually insist on breaking off at 4500. Minimum deployment altitudes are listed in SIM 2-1(G). Since you are an A License holder your minimum deployment altitude is 3,000 AGL. SIM 6-1(C) recommends for groups of five or smaller, a breakoff altitude 1,500 feet higher than the highest planned deployment altitude (excluding a single camera flyer). With this in mind, a breakoff of 4,500 is not unreasonable. I would personally suggest you track for a bit farther though to take advantage of the added separation. With +80 jumps you should be able to safely deploy and deal with most problems at 3,000 AGL. You're jumping with a group now. There will have to be some give and take. Just don't get pushed beyond your or the USPA's limits.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #9 October 9, 2003 for RW4 that's approx the alti I break (4000-4500), for 2 way FF too.. for more people in FF I break at approx 5000 ft the reason why approx is : depends on the level of the group I usually count in meters, cause I have an altimeter, not an altifeet ---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #10 October 9, 2003 I always insist on breaking at or above 4000. My track isn't the greatest so I like to have plenty of time to make sure I am in clear air before I pull. That said, I pull around 3k. I have my B now so i _could_ pull down to 2500, but I don't really see a need to go that much lower.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #11 October 9, 2003 I would really say that the old school RW people with quick opening canopies may want to take it to 2500 to 2000 AGL. My canopy can take a 1000 ft to open so I will not open below 3000AGL. to pull. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 October 9, 2003 QuoteMy canopy can take a 1000 ft to open so I will not open below 3000AGL. Given that canopy opening distance, that's a smart move. But if it is taking that long to open, I would want to change something about the way it is packed or rigged to make it open quicker. 1,000' is just too unpredictable and inconsistent for my liking... :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RippedCord 0 #13 October 9, 2003 Not to correct Quade, but to make sure the gospel is spelled out emphatically... A group of six or more that has an "A" licensed diver participating should have a MINIMUM break off of 5000 feet. Groups of five or less with an "A" licensed diver participating should break at a MINIMUM of 4500 feet. SIM Section 2-1 G. MINIMUM OPENING ALTITUDES [E] Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are: 1. Tandem jumps–4,500 feet AGL 2. All students and A-license holders–3,000 feet AGL 3. B-license holders–2,500 feet AGL 4. C- and D-license holders–2,000 feet AGL SIM Section 6-1 C. BREAKOFF 1. The minimum breakoff altitude should be— a. for groups of five or fewer, at least 1,500 feet higher than the highest planned deployment altitude in the group (not counting one camera flyer) b. for groups of six or more, at least 2,000 feet higher than the highest planned deployment altitude in the group (not counting a signaling deployment or camera flyers) AMDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 333 #14 October 10, 2003 Jumping with very advanced and current skydivers, would ususally break up to a 6-way at 3500, up to 12 at 4000, with the highest pilot chutes going out around 2500. This is for belly flying -- you may need more altitude for breaking off a freefly dive, and certainly jumpers with less jumps should start the process higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #15 October 10, 2003 Keith -- While I appreciate your, um, enthusiasm, go back and re-read his original questions, then re-read my responses. There are no inconsistencies between my responces to his questions and USPA policies. BTW, if you ever -do- catch me in a legitimate mistake quoting USPA policy or FAA regulations and can prove it to me by citing chapter and verse -- I'll buy you a Coke. This goes not just for you, but anybody else. I figure if people are looking to catch me misquoting USPA SIM or FAA FARs, it's worth a Coke for the educational value alone. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 October 10, 2003 RW at 3500 (unless it's a group bigger than 10) FF at 4500 However, when we get new people that want to break early, I just tell them to break at what they are comfortable. They have to take care of themselves. What else do we do? Hold them in the formation for another thousand? We've done a couple three way points after the newbie breaks - then track. It's all good. But here, you need to make sure that all understand what the newbie is doing - is he moving away and dumping in plain sight? or is he tracking and dumping? It's important that we don't get under him. I don't care, so long as everyone knows ahead of time. I'll still watch him out of the corner if you know what I mean. The 4-way team is pretty experienced and we break between 3500 and 3000. Usually sitting in the harness at just around 2000 sometimes slightly lower. But I learned under static line and am very comfortable there. With the otter students, their first hop n pop is at 3000, maybe the first time they have ever exited below 10000 ft. I can see the concern and expect them to get comfortable with their new hard deck as they advance. But some never do - it follows the same people as are uncomfortable with spotting for some reason. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshKat 0 #17 October 10, 2003 Hey Hummusx, i dunno if it's 'unreasonable' but that's what I, & a few others of similar exp. do... (looks like I got same no. jumps as you btw) Seems like some dzs that's cool & others it's a bit high - but as long as everyone knows that's what you're doing it'll be all good.. I kinda like to enjoy the view for a bit! (funny though, my 1st jump was from 2200 that didn't bother me ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #18 October 10, 2003 QuoteI've had people roll their eyes or act quite shocked that I would want to break that high. Am I crazy? It's not unreasonable for someone with less than 100 jumps to want to break at 4500 is it? You're not crazy. At 78 jumps, I still want to pull at 4,500...so folks I jump with tend to be willing to break at 5,500, so we can track. I have gone "low", and pulled at 4,000, but I was anxious. I've done as large as an 8way, and everyone on that dive respected my desire to pull at that level. If someone looks at me a little oddly, I explain that I am still really learning canopy stuff, and need the extra time to work riser turns, flat turns, and flare points. And if they have any issue with it, I explain I will jump with them someday, but not yet, and "take the blame" for the jump not happening. It's my ass, I want the extra time, and I still need that margin of safety that pulling higher allows me. Everyone on the load knows where I'm pulling, as well as the pilot. It's just my needs at this point. It's all good...but don't feel pressured into pulling lower than you like to. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
testpilot 0 #19 October 10, 2003 Keep it safe. You know your limitations, now just make the decision. I break off at 4500 and will keep on doing so until I see fit to change. I am responsible to get me home in one piece. Dave D830 http://www.skydiving.co.za Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #20 October 11, 2003 Come and jump with us anytime- Our 4-way team typically breaks between 4k and 4.5. In competition you've only got 35 seconds working time anyway, and half the fun is the canopy ride, so why cheat yourself? You won't find too many at our DZ giving you flack for wanting to break where you like to. Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekendwonder 0 #21 October 13, 2003 Break off altitude is whatever you feel most comfortable with, consistent with your license/rating and any restrictions due to group size. If someone tells you that your "break off is too high", you should find other folks who think the way you do. Stick to your guns. Blues, Bob Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #22 October 13, 2003 Quote I would really say that the old school RW people with quick opening canopies may want to take it to 2500 to 2000 AGL. My canopy can take a 1000 ft to open so I will not open below 3000AGL. to pull. Kirk I've got to agree. When I jumped a Sabre I didn't mind pulling at 2k. Now that I jump a Vengeance I prefer to pull at 3k. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #23 October 14, 2003 It's totally NOT unreasonable. If anything, when I've been on jumps with people, we always ask the person with the fewest jumps where they want to break off at. I'm not comfortable breaking off below 4K. 4500 is perfectly okay. It sounds like those rolling their eyes have a bit of "sky-god-ness" ...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #24 October 14, 2003 Quote At 78 jumps, I still want to pull at 4,500 you learned via AFF, eh? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #25 October 14, 2003 Quoteyou learned via AFF, eh? Your point? You will find that several experienced jumpers have changed their hard decks, pull and break-off altitudes upwards, irrespective of how they were initially trained. Michele is quite correct in that 'it is her ass', after all. She is also doing the right thing by informing everyone on the load, including the pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
